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General Astronomy => Beginners Forum => Topic started by: poithegepur on December 24, 2017, 05:47:39 PM

Title: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: poithegepur on December 24, 2017, 05:47:39 PM
I recently responded to an internet ad for someone selling a Zhumell Z12 dob with numerous eyepieces for $350.

Being a newbie in this pastime, and suffering badly with my small dated 114mm newtonian, I contacted the vendor and told her I would be right over to take a look at the extent.  Upon arrival, she informed me that it had a 12" mirror and had only been out twice in the two years she owned it.  It seemed like it came right from the box.  Needless to say I was eager to pick up this kind of fine scope at such a great cost.

I scrutinized the eyepieces, took a fast glance down the tube (I can only imagine the twinkle in my eyes once I saw that large shiny main), checked out the alt/azi bearings and all were in perfect condition.  Even 3 of the 5 eyepieces were still in original packaging.  I handed over my money and loaded up the extent, anxious to receive it under the stars for some seeing.

Arriving at home prior to dusk, I put it up in the garden and was amazed at the wild views I had been becoming.  I spent hours in the dark only cruising the skies, hopping from Jupiter to Saturn, Vega to Arcturus, wide angle 30mm ep to tight 8mm, tried a few Messiers but had not really got down my star navigation nonetheless but I was hooked.  This totally blew away my small 114mm.  Money well spent.

I then began a few little mods.  Nothing big, just added a Telrad, moved the 8x50 finderscope over 3/4 inch to accommodate the Telrad, and inserted a bathtub cap dust cover into the bottom of the tube.  Then I chose to earn a lightshade at the end of the tube that, of course, required some dimensions.  Circumference = diameter x 3.14....but my tube diameter only measured a hair over 12".  What gives, I believed.  Looking down the tube, I noticed there was 3/4 inch gap on all sides of the main. . .how could this be a 12" mirror as promoted?  Then it dawned on me and my heart sank a small bit, just like 2 inches, then my Z12 had turned into a Z10.  In my haste to boost my aperture, I failed to take measurements before buying.  Taking the kind woman at her word about it being a 12" mirror, my eager newbie standing had little me in the hind quarters.

Do not get me wrong, I LOVE THIS SCOPE, and I got one hell of a deal on a practically new extent, but I would've much rather had the error in hauled go the OTHER way.

So today I find myself suffering from aperture envy yet again.  Wondering how much the amazing views I am getting with a 10 inch would improve with a 14 or even 16 inch dob.  At some stage I'd like to get to AP but that is years down the road for me because it's such a significant investment for proper gear.  So being merely a visual astro guy for the time being, I'd like to get into the biggest aperture I will manage.  A 12 inch seems a modest jump so I've been eyeballing the 14's and 16's.  I have noticed the Orion XX16 and the item is a monster but being that it collapses into manageable pieces, I believe it would fit my requirements and cure my aperture envy for visual observing.

I guess if there's a question in all this it would be is there a massive amount of difference in seeing power between a 10 inch and a 12 or 14 inch, or possibly a 16 inch?  Enough of a difference to justify the expense of a new king sized dob?

Aside from those queries, I only wanted to go off on a rant just a bit about my experience being new to the hobby and lessons learned concerning the 2nd hand market. . .buyer beware and always know that your dimensions and bring along your tape measure.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: coachroninil on December 26, 2017, 11:33:19 PM
If it's any consolation, you paid exactly what the going rate is for a used 10" dob.  The same innocent mistake has happened to lots of others, too.

I love my 12" scopes.  Keep your eyes open for another 12" extent and then flip this 10".  I have a 16" scope.  It is really a handful.  The views are excellent but my 12" extent gets outside more.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Davione Boone on December 28, 2017, 11:40:44 AM
10" is an excellent size. Buy a 12 and your in the water heater moving business.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: libulbinis on January 04, 2018, 10:47:38 AM
Quote
If it's any consolation, you paid exactly what the going rate is for a used 10" dob. The same innocent mistake has happened to lots of others, too.
Thanks Ken, that does make me feel a bit better. I feel I also got the added bonus of the extra eyepieces as well.

Would the views really improve that much with just an additional 2" of aperture if I went with a 12"?
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Jeff Ramirez on January 08, 2018, 12:36:00 AM
Yikes,
sorry about that. It´s a good thing the scope seems to be in perfect mechanical and optical conditions, and there´s always the chance the seller didn´t know a 10 from a 12..., so honest mistake. Least I´d like to think so. Still should probably contact the seller?

But yeah, it is not quite the same when you think you get one thing and instead get another.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Robert Farley on January 08, 2018, 07:24:07 AM
You did fine. Scopes larger than 10" can quickly become a pain to carry, transport and store once the new wears off.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: pesorramidd on January 10, 2018, 03:32:15 AM
Quote
Quote

If it's any consolation, you paid exactly what the going rate is for a used 10" dob. The same innocent mistake has happened to lots of others, too.
Thanks Ken, that does make me feel a bit better. I feel I also got the added bonus of the extra eyepieces as well.

Would the views really improve that much with just an additional 2" of aperture if I went with a 12"?
This will probably start an opinion storm, but...
Yes, the 2" is worth the one-time expense and every night hassle of moving a scope. I owned a 10" when I got my first 12". The 10" never got used again. I sold it.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: gladinises on January 10, 2018, 06:10:43 AM
To put in in perspective, going from 114mm to 10" gave you over 380% increase in light gathering. 10" to 12" gives 56% more light, 12" to 14" 44%, 14" to 16" 36% etc. Going bigger, atleast by the numbers, won't feel as significant as the jump you just made. But I can totally understand the bummer feeling of not having what you thought you did.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Jasper Banks on January 11, 2018, 12:04:33 AM
a 12" hard tube dob is quite a armfull, and the chinese truss scopes like Orion XX etc don't really make things that much better.  I'd much rather have an ultralight design like www.dobstuff.com builds for anything 12" or larger.   I helped a guy build a XX16g, and was /not/ impressed at all, but he was determined to have computerized goto.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Eric Shaffer on January 12, 2018, 05:00:18 AM
14" would be a worth while upgrade. Delivers just shy of 2x light gathering ability of the 10". Never owned a 10" personally, but having gone from 8" to 12" to 14" always noticed the aperture upgrade as substantial, even from 12" to 14" was very noticeable.BTW I am an "Apertureholic". Beware of catching the "aperture bug".

Stephen.(45deg.S.)
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: tinlengmmuner on January 12, 2018, 06:26:56 AM
Quote
10" is an excellent size. Buy a 12 and your in the water heater moving business.


<p class="citation">Quote

Would the views really improve that much with just an additional 2" of aperture if I went with a 12"?

[/quote]

The short answer:

See above.

The long answer:

The views of a 10 inch and a 12 inch are more the same than they are different. I have owned my 10 inch F/5 Dob since 2003. It's never been my biggest scope but it's a favorite and it gets a lot of use.

I think of it as big enough to provide some amazing views but not too big so you're in the water heater business. If your Z-10 had actually been a Z-12, you'd know what I mean.

There's always a bigger scope out there. The key is enjoying what you do have and learning to use it in the most effective possible way. Developing your observing skills by getting out there at every chance you get will make a bigger difference by far than those 2 inch can provide.

Jon
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: litgeschsappa on January 13, 2018, 11:33:02 AM
A 10" Dob in excellent condition with 5 eyepieces for $350? Wow, you got a very good deal on a very nice scope. You have nothing to regret. Get outside and enjoy your scope, which has tremendous potential.

Ed D
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Joe Hall on January 13, 2018, 12:17:13 PM
You got a great deal. I think the seller made an honest mistake. Personally I'd keep the 10 and sometime in the future upgrade to a 14" or larger truss but keep the 10 as a grab and go.IMO if I could only have ONE telescope, it would be a 10 inch dob.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Ronald Bryan on January 13, 2018, 03:20:25 PM
You got an excellent deal considering what you paid and what you received -- assuming reasonable quality.

Despite what many have said and will say, aperture isn't everything -- at least not to everyone. I have a 10". I have a 12". My most used telescopes are a 5" and a 6". Much depends on the person, their sky, what they want to see and/or how they want to make use of their telescope(s).

A 10" telescope is more than capable of providing a lifetime of pleasurable use -- at least for someone like myself. I can honestly say that I've not used my 10" nor my 12" once in the past 12 months. I didn't need their greater light grasp. I didn't need their greater resolution. On the other hand, I've seen things with my 5" that others have failed to see with *much* larger telescopes.

Once at a star party someone was talking about the need for a 40" telescope. I asked: "Why?" They replied: "You can see things that you can't see with a smaller telescope." I said: "Like what?" They mentioned one specific object -- the wrong object. I was able to honestly reply: "I've seen that with a 5" telescope."
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: trapoutampub on January 15, 2018, 02:12:51 PM
galaxies that were barely discernible faint smudges against dark skies in my 10" are wonders of detail in a 18 or 20" scope.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Jerome Fountain on January 15, 2018, 03:12:50 PM
Its in a 10" globs become alive

Its in a 12" m82's notch becomes detailed.

And a 12" doesn't have to be a water heater
(https://s13.postimg.org/blo9gvv2b/15_attachment_00.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/blo9gvv2b/)
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: closfockralperp on January 18, 2018, 08:04:38 AM
Quote
14" would be a worth while upgrade. Delivers just shy of 2x light gathering ability of the 10". Never owned a 10" personally, but having gone from 8" to 12" to 14" always noticed the aperture upgrade as substantial, even from 12" to 14" was very noticeable.BTW I am an "Apertureholic". Beware of catching the "aperture bug".

Stephen.(45deg.S.)

Holy cow! Aperture-holic is maybe a slight understatement, Mr. 33".

A 14 is kind of where I'm leaning towards as to get a worth while jump in light gathering. Trying to stay away from the goto's and computerized scopes as I really am enjoying my Messier hunting and star hopping with the Telrad on the Z10. About the only thing tempting me with the computerized dobs is the tracking ability.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Chaudhari Evans on January 21, 2018, 01:34:27 AM
Quote

The views of a 10 inch and a 12 inch are more the same than they are different. I have owned my 10 inch F/5 Dob since 2003. It's never been my biggest scope but it's a favorite and it gets a lot of use.

I think of it as big enough to provide some amazing views but not too big so you're in the water heater business. If your Z-10 had actually been a Z-12, you'd know what I mean.

There's always a bigger scope out there. The key is enjoying what you do have and learning to use it in the most effective possible way. Developing your observing skills by getting out there at every chance you get will make a bigger difference by far than those 2 inch can provide.

Jon
Don't get me wrong, I'm in love with this Z10 and can't seem to get enough time under the stars to satisfy. I swear I got lost for hours when I found M13. I guess I'm just future tripping a little. Thinking I could have the Z10 as my grab n go and perhaps a 14 as my end-all-be-all before jumping into AP someday.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Scott Bentley on January 21, 2018, 06:20:25 AM
You may have experienced a "backhanded favor". You got a reasonable deal instead of a super deal but, you are pleased with the scope. The XT10 is about the max aperture, closed tubed, mass produced Newtonian that will fit into a sedan. I own a closed tube, XT12, and while I don't find it difficult to use it around my home, it does become a production to transport it.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Lauro Mason on January 23, 2018, 03:38:30 PM
Keeping the 10" for grab n go and maybe down the road, jumping to a 14" sounds like a fine plan to me.

Going from 10 to 14 is nearly a 2x jump in light gathering, and you aren't yet into the "scope so big and heavy you don't use it as much" territory.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: grafpievimel on January 23, 2018, 04:21:31 PM
Quote
You may have experienced a "backhanded favor". You got a reasonable deal instead of a super deal but, you are pleased with the scope. The XT10 is about the max aperture, closed tubed, mass produced Newtonian that will fit into a sedan. I own a closed tube, XT12, and while I don't find it difficult to use it around my home, it does become a production to transport it.

closed tube XT12i, Oberwerk BT45-100 binocs in a large pelican/storm case, tripod for said binocs, stool for binos, astro chair, table for accessoris, aux lounge chair, eyepiece case, accessory case, all fit in a 1990's Volvo 740/940 wagon with room to spare as long as the back seats are folded down.
same load in the back of a Tacoma (which isn't actually any bigger than the Volvo 740/940 wagon!)
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: juskemenbo on January 23, 2018, 06:41:50 PM
Quote
Quote
The views of a 10 inch and a 12 inch are more the same than they are different. I have owned my 10 inch F/5 Dob since 2003. It's never been my biggest scope but it's a favorite and it gets a lot of use.

I think of it as big enough to provide some amazing views but not too big so you're in the water heater business. If your Z-10 had actually been a Z-12, you'd know what I mean.

There's always a bigger scope out there. The key is enjoying what you do have and learning to use it in the most effective possible way. Developing your observing skills by getting out there at every chance you get will make a bigger difference by far than those 2 inch can provide.

Jon
Don't get me wrong, I'm in love with this Z10 and can't seem to get enough time under the stars to satisfy. I swear I got lost for hours when I found M13. I guess I'm just future tripping a little. Thinking I could have the Z10 as my grab n go and perhaps a 14 as my end-all-be-all before jumping into AP someday.
Look on the bright side , with a 10in at 5 you can "still " get a 2 degree AFOV thru the thing "relatively " inexpensively with a 30mm-31mm -82 .
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: viogreetnifi on January 25, 2018, 03:27:00 PM
and against a truly dark sky, that 2 deg. field with a 6mm exit pupil will be absolutely stunning on things like M31, M42, M8.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: David Reynolds on January 25, 2018, 05:42:05 PM
my 12in in the back of my van...

https://www.youtube....h?v=tlb_pfZRY8Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlb_pfZRY8Q)
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: handvestlazo on January 30, 2018, 11:45:37 PM
hey, I'm packing an Obsession 20" plus all stuff needed in my Tacoma now
to whats in there, I can add 2 10x10 popup awnings, several camp chairs, a small buffet table, my eyepiece case, accessory bin, a 5 gallon water jug, a 2000VA DC inverter generator, etc, and be ready for a week at a major star party... the ladder goes on a roof rack now, which makes things easier.  those silver motorcycle ramps are used to get the 20/5 in and out of said pickup

hey, this guy from my club has a 18" truss in his MINICOOPER, along with all his camping gear, tent, etc, PLUS a halpha solar scope on a motorized tripod... https://photos.app.g...bulRqnFQoNq5Iu2 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/sCbulRqnFQoNq5Iu2)
(https://s9.postimg.org/9atet41sr/24_attachment_00.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/9atet41sr/)
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Chris Jiles on January 31, 2018, 12:29:39 AM
here's was my 10in packed for a trip...in the black softshell case

doesn't really take much to ditch the tube and make a truss
(https://s9.postimg.org/ubjgdvkor/25_attachment_00.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ubjgdvkor/)

(https://s9.postimg.org/b6g744lgb/25_attachment_01.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/b6g744lgb/)
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Todd Treser on January 31, 2018, 02:50:25 AM
did you get a kit, or cut that all yourself?

I know a few folks who've converted older large dobs to ultra-compact truss via www.dobstuff.com (http://www.dobstuff.com) kits
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Waka Belcher on January 31, 2018, 05:08:37 AM
You got a great deal. Enjoy it while you learn what a 10" can do. Aperture fever is fake until you know the limits of what your current aperture is. Once you feel you need more to complete that list of Abell planetaries or peculiar galaxies, then go for the aperture needed for that task. Remember, scopes are just tools and if you do not know what you can do with a larger step up, then you are not ready to make the jump. After 6 mos you may decide 10" is enough, or you may decide 12" is too little.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: zajusima on January 31, 2018, 10:07:11 AM
Quote
You got a great deal. Enjoy it while you learn what a 10" can do. Aperture fever is fake until you know the limits of what your current aperture is. Once you feel you need more to complete that list of Abell planetaries or peculiar galaxies, then go for the aperture needed for that task. Remember, scopes are just tools and if you do not know what you can do with a larger step up, then you are not ready to make the jump. After 6 mos you may decide 10" is enough, or you may decide 12" is too little.

That, my friend, is sound advice.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Chuck Johnston on February 02, 2018, 04:02:45 PM
Quote
did you get a kit, or cut that all yourself?
my production facility manager hooked me up
(https://s18.postimg.org/6esyanpth/29_attachment_00.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6esyanpth/)
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Richard Acosta on February 02, 2018, 05:25:49 PM
Welll, what you lost in aperture you gained in portability and ease of use. The 10" is great scope! A coworker recently scored a Z12 at a garage sale and it is quite a beast! A 10" makes a fine manageable big scope.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Kyle Wood on February 02, 2018, 11:53:25 PM
Quote
Welll, what you lost in aperture you gained in portability and ease of use. The 10" is great scope! A coworker recently scored a Z12 at a garage sale and it is quite a beast! A 10" makes a fine manageable big scope.

Enjoy!

Last year a guy I know was selling a 12 inch Orion Tube Dob for $240. The tube had a dent but otherwise the scope was in good condition. Had it been a 10 inch, I would have bought it for a loaner. But those12 inch tube Dobs are too big for a sedan and as Tomykay said, most people aren't ready to wrestle with a water heater.

Jon
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: stimtinpaso on February 04, 2018, 11:52:19 AM
Quote
<p class="citation">Quote

did you get a kit, or cut that all yourself?
my production facility manager hooked me up

[/quote]
but I still mainly cut scopes by hand


(https://s9.postimg.org/3l78vz3rv/33_attachment_00.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3l78vz3rv/)

(https://s9.postimg.org/3xyn26gwr/33_attachment_01.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3xyn26gwr/)
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Ivan Kim on February 09, 2018, 12:17:36 AM
Maybe she measured the inside diameter of the tube? No one measures the mirror physically because it is at the bottom of the tube in the mirror Cell.

If she is new and didn't personally buy it, perhaps she really thought it was 12"...shrugs.

Plenty to see with a 10". Once you have done enough galaxy and planetary nebulae viewing where you are craving more, then you can skip 12" and go to 14" or 16", perhaps sink more money into a premium one. Always have your 10" as a grab and go dob.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: tinlengmmuner on February 09, 2018, 02:05:38 AM
I personally wouldn't be able to tell a 10" from a 12" without comparing measurements, presuming I didn't have info on the tube or have a pair of pictures or tubes in front of me, and I've looked at a lot of them.

At any rate, lots of folks have already given lots of good advice. My only telescope is a 5." Not interested in a standard 10" because having to tote a tube and mount that heavy in and out would wear thin almost immediately.

My 5" weighs 14 pounds tube and mount and takes very little effort for me to take out. I'm mainly interested in the solar system, so I don't need light-gathering; more aperture would just help me with resolution, and I'm not willing to spend 2k on a &lt;30 pound 10" dob; I'd sooner spend that on a trip to France with my family.

The truth is that even a 3" scope or a pair of binoculars could provide a lifetime of astronomy enjoyment without exhausting even a fraction of things visible in the sky, and on the other end, even a 50" scope (or larger) won't show you everything in detail. Learning to be happy with where you are is key for pretty much everything in life, not just astronomy.

I'll freely admit that if you offered me your 10", I'd thank you and kindly turn it down, as 50 pounds-worth of telescope to move around would be enough to keep me indoors.
Title: Re: So my Z12 turned into a Z10
Post by: Milan Gainer on February 09, 2018, 10:57:10 AM
You're enjoying the 10" awesomely at the moment, and going from 10 to 12 isn't big enough of a jump for the effort. Keep the 10 and keep enjoying the hell out of it. 10" can be a lifetime scope for some people. Someday in the future, evaluate whether you can handle a 16" and then go for it if so. If not, just keep enjoying the 10.