Author Topic: "LED Wars" in New York City  (Read 36 times)

olchakisur

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"LED Wars" in New York City
« on: December 31, 2017, 03:18:19 AM »
Well, this NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.c...ption.html?_r=0)actually quotes a study by "Brandon Welsh, a professor of criminology at Northeastern University" that claims that brighter street lights actually do reduce crime. However the NYC Police Dept does not support the claim.

It seems that some love the new bright blue LEDs and others hate them.



ciomasbure

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2018, 07:07:13 AM »
My wife and I drove through a neighborhood that now has LED streetlights over the weekend. It was horribly bright.

Dave Mitsky

formberrotog

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 11:06:10 AM »
The article highlights something that should be obvious -- that light pollution is largely a class issue.

In rural upstate New York, where I have my country home, it's the poor people who have bright glare bombs in their yards. One of the side-effects of poverty is fearfulness. Glare bombs don't make you safer, but they make you feel safer.

The upper-middle-class folks (like me) either have a couple of discrete outdoor lights or none at all.

colzefuli

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 10:40:05 PM »
Quote
The article highlights something that should be obvious -- that light pollution is largely a class issue.

In rural upstate New York, where I have my country home, it's the poor people who have bright glare bombs in their yards. One of the side-effects of poverty is fearfulness. Glare bombs don't make you safer, but they make you feel safer.

The upper-middle-class folks (like me) either have a couple of discrete outdoor lights or none at all.


Even Professor Welsh admits that the brighter lights do not scare away criminals or make life easier for "crime fighters". He says that the lights make people feel better about their neighborhood - which I take as meaning that they are more positive about the future. He says the lights help the people "take ownership" of their neighborhood - and that brings lower crime rates.

Elsewhere in New York (Capital District city of Troy for example) there is a bunch of private and government money going into "lighting up" the many abandoned buildings (especially houses) at night. The claim is that the lighted houses (even abandoned ones) make people more 'positive' about these blighted neighborhoods - and that lowers crime, and encourages people to move back into the area.
For such people, "Light Pollution" is not seen as a problem..... or it is seen as an "elitist problem".... not there's.

micnoasolos

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2018, 06:16:21 AM »
Quote
The article highlights something that should be obvious -- that light pollution is largely a class issue.
In rural upstate New York, where I have my country home, it's the poor people who have bright glare bombs in their yards. One of the side-effects of poverty is fearfulness. Glare bombs don't make you safer, but they make you feel safer.
The upper-middle-class folks (like me) either have a couple of discrete outdoor lights or none at all.

Interesting, I think your on to something, here its kinda the same, its the single wide trailers that seem on the average to be lit up more.
Just last week I said to my wife, why is it that the poorer folks the ones with all the no trespassing signs up? Yet the middle and upper class don't.
(Quite possibly because they may not have the means to replace their goods)
Anyway, I'm not trying to start a class war, but echoing your observations.

Chris Goldsby

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 09:01:52 PM »
Quote
The article highlights something that should be obvious -- that light pollution is largely a class issue.

In rural upstate New York, where I have my country home, it's the poor people who have bright glare bombs in their yards. One of the side-effects of poverty is fearfulness. Glare bombs don't make you safer, but they make you feel safer.

The upper-middle-class folks (like me) either have a couple of discrete outdoor lights or none at all.


I would have to disagree with Tony's final comment. If one drives through the high-end neighborhoods of SE New York, or SW CT, with which I am personally very familiar, you do not find that the many of the homes of the wealthy are lacking in exterior illumination. In fact, I see countless up-scale homes in these areas having their exterior walls and gardens awash with floodlights, out of vanity, not fear, I suppose.

Honestly, the same is often true for the middle class neighborhood in which I live in New York's Hudson Valley. The most horrific examples I've encountered so far consist of two local homes and a new development. The first home is about a quarter mile south of me on my own street and is illuminated by 17 spotlights (yes, I stopped and actually counted them!). The other home used to be (now hidden by trees from my location, thank God!) on a hill a couple of miles to my SE. They apparently had a couple of aircraft landing lights in the front yard as they shown like stars with an apparent magnitude of about -6 as seen from my home a couple of miles distant! And finally, a new up-scale development was recently added to my neighborhood. Although my area would be regarded as rural by most folks here and is otherwise totally unlit, the new development came with full street lighting, the only such spot for miles around, and many of the homes are lit up as I've described previously. Bye Bye dark skies.

BrooksObs

hluhsubshoona

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 04:24:58 AM »
Quote
Quote

The article highlights something that should be obvious -- that light pollution is largely a class issue.

In rural upstate New York, where I have my country home, it's the poor people who have bright glare bombs in their yards. One of the side-effects of poverty is fearfulness. Glare bombs don't make you safer, but they make you feel safer.

The upper-middle-class folks (like me) either have a couple of discrete outdoor lights or none at all.


I would have to disagree with Tony's final comment. If one drives through the high-end neighborhoods of SE New York, or SW CT, with which I am personally very familiar, you do not find that the many of the homes of the wealthy are lacking in exterior illumination. In fact, I see countless up-scale homes in these areas having their exterior walls and gardens awash with floodlights, out of vanity, not fear, I suppose.

Honestly, the same is often true for the middle class neighborhood in which I live in New York's Hudson Valley. ......

BrooksObs

YuppieLand! I think you are right about "vanity" and not "security" being the reason for the lightshere. I've seen the same thing while visiting Northern Virginia.

What you are describing are people who want to "move to the country" - and bring "the city" with them.

However, from what I've seen, it is limited to the exurbs of big cities and a few other places, like Saratoga County in NY..... where everyone fleeing Albany are going to. In the "real sticks" there are few if any of these Yuppie Homes. The only "development" we have are Meth Labs......

quiterhardpho

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 05:57:12 AM »
Quote
Quote

Quote

The article highlights something that should be obvious -- that light pollution is largely a class issue.

In rural upstate New York, where I have my country home, it's the poor people who have bright glare bombs in their yards. One of the side-effects of poverty is fearfulness. Glare bombs don't make you safer, but they make you feel safer.

The upper-middle-class folks (like me) either have a couple of discrete outdoor lights or none at all.


I would have to disagree with Tony's final comment. If one drives through the high-end neighborhoods of SE New York, or SW CT, with which I am personally very familiar, you do not find that the many of the homes of the wealthy are lacking in exterior illumination. In fact, I see countless up-scale homes in these areas having their exterior walls and gardens awash with floodlights, out of vanity, not fear, I suppose.

Honestly, the same is often true for the middle class neighborhood in which I live in New York's Hudson Valley. ......

BrooksObs

YuppieLand! I think you are right about "vanity" and not "security" being the reason for the lightshere. I've seen the same thing while visiting Northern Virginia.

What you are describing are people who want to "move to the country" - and bring "the city" with them.

However, from what I've seen, it is limited to the exurbs of big cities and a few other places, like Saratoga County in NY..... where everyone fleeing Albany are going to. In the "real sticks" there are few if any of these Yuppie Homes. The only "development" we have are Meth Labs......
Quite correct, George. When I moved to my current home 45 years ago the only outdoor lighting to be found within a radius of 6-8 miles was a circa 1940's wooden lightpole with a shaded 100w incandescent light bulb in front of the local fire station. It stayed that way for about 15 years. But during the ensuing years thereafter the steady urbanite flight from NYC (75 miles away!) caused the town's demographic make-up to go from mainly farmers to one of transplanted city folk who commuted daily and as you say, they tried to bring all of the city's worst aspects (strip malls, traffic congestion, excessive lighting, and gross stupidity) with them.BrooksObs

xenjavabve

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 02:02:11 AM »
At least the NYPD has some common sense.

cromsotejbi

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 05:49:21 AM »
Quote
At least the NYPD has some common sense.


When, several years ago, a "citizens group" was pushing for more lighting on the main street of thesmall town of Endicott, NY -to counter a claimed increase in "gangs" and drug-related crime..... the police chief said that more light would just make it easier for the drug dealers to count their change.

It was later reported that the "citizens group" was actually a group of store owners along the street and their actual motivation was a belief that more lightning would attract more customers to their stores.

It later came out that the gang activity increasewas related to illegallate-night raves...... in the upper floors of the very stores who's owners wanted more light to combat crime!

There was no increase in lighting at the time...... but the LED revolution has not hit Endicott yet. Those crime fightin' lights could appear yet......

dsepinumer

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2018, 12:51:51 PM »
Rest assured that they will. Contact the town Public works for starters. The arguments against lighting are becoming more compelling-changing the seasons, health issues, environmental issues (carbon footprint, circadian/reproductive disruption in animals, seasonal decoupling of plants and animal cycles), no real correlation to security, money and the worldwide extent of our attempt to get rid of the stars.There is a great study that also shows intensities of lights are too high.I can't find the link at the moment, but it was done by Clanton and Associates.

subliliva

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Re: "LED Wars" in New York City
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 10:12:14 PM »
I personally believe that people who gain wealth but still have a "piper" aka a scrunter mentality will think that more lighting is a sign they reached high class.
You can't buy.class