Author Topic: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution  (Read 992 times)

bayretide

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2018, 07:32:04 AM »
True. People are living longer and longer, but cancer rates are very high compared to historical levels.This is not due to the fact that the burgeoning population of elderly folks are getting cancer either.I think that laws regulating lighting are absolutely appropriate.Has generating any awareness created the shift or political will to do something about light pollution? Not yet and it does not look good for the future.Does my neighbor enjoys his floodlights? I seriously doubt it. He is probably plopped down in front of the TV rather than looking out lovingly at the wall of light over his driveway. He, like many others, are probably unaware of the lights or are taking false comfort in the "force field of light" that magically repels intruders.

John Daniels

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2018, 11:47:06 AM »
Peoples innate fear of the dark is the issue. Crime, especially in big cities drives people indoors and to put bars on the windows and lights on the yard, which are natural reactions.  As far as cancer, I seriously doubt any verifiable scientific case could ever be made, putting that as your cause won't gain any traction and could end up painting amateur astronomers as kooks in the fringe.

elunmolunch

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2018, 08:02:52 PM »
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As far as cancer, I seriously doubt any verifiable scientific case could ever be made
Because I am a eternally-curious person, on what scientific basis are you making this claim? What scientific facts lead you to have such doubts?Personally, I'm inclined to believe science, because I do amateur astronomy, and I believe how far stars really are from us, based on science. I believe what they are made of, based on science. Therefore, I am also inclined to believe well-respected researchers such as Dr. David Blask, Dr. George Brainard and Dr. Charles Czeisler write scientific papers based on scientific studies of the harm light can cause. Besides, people believe politicians on FAR less evidence and facts (usually based on... emotionally powerful language - see how we come full circle?). So I will try to re-direct this discussion back to what I originally asked about: Emotionally powerful language that can MOVE people's ideas about light. Yes, fear is a powerful motivator, and as much as adults don't want to admit it, a lot of them ARE probably afraid of the dark.So why can't we find ways to combat that, rather than brushing it off before even trying by suggesting we'd be branded as "kooks"? Plenty of people out there DO believe science. The point is, how can WE, the amateur astronomy community, those with some of the best understanding of this issue, word it in ways that will move people to make changes? And as Tony Flanders rightly pointed out, people already make decisions based on emotion. It's not manipulation. It's using basic sales techniques. If we want to move people's minds on this issue, we need to use sales techniques, or you know what will happen? We'll keep losing more of the night sky. I don't find that a very satisfying direction to go. So TCW, what ideas do you have that will have traction? I originally asked, "What phrases can we come up with that will create short, memorable, emotionally-powerful messages to get our argument into the public sphere? I would be glad for you to share your positive ideas which we can use to drive this message home more effectively.

Rasheed Grayson

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2018, 08:20:30 PM »
Try a campaign telling people street lights give them cancer and what results you get. Personally I think it is impossible to separate out the effects of artificial light from the trillions of other environmental factors. What are you going to use as a control group?  Aborigines in the deepest Amazon with 30 year life spans?

Every agenda group out there be they vegans, radical environmentalists, animal rights and others make preposterous claims endlessly all claiming "scientific" veracity. Invariably their "studies" end up being unrepeatable if not out right frauds.  I choose a little common sense. If light gives us cancer then there is no hope! But hey give it a go if you think you can gain traction with that one!

bardeperdi

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2018, 05:33:59 AM »
Quote - How did that work for you? What light pollution reduction gains did you experience from that? I for one was introduced to Astronomy by a teacher and became a life long enthusiast and lover of the night sky and I don't think it is a stretch to say almost everyone on CN's forums was introduced by someone.  One by one people can be swayed by the best argument of all - the Night Sky!  If you want emotion try the summer Milky Way, M42 or Saturn in a good scope.We are on the same side and love the beauty of the Night Sky and I dare say all of us on the forum do too! The only political solution I can think of that has worked is called North Korea although I doubt "dear leader" is an astronomer!

Sean Schaefer

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2018, 10:24:56 AM »
Quote
Try a campaign telling people street lights give them cancer and what results you get. Personally I think it is impossible to separate out the effects of artificial light from the trillions of other environmental factors. What are you going to use as a control group?  Aborigines in the deepest Amazon with 30 year life spans?

Every agenda group out there be they vegans, radical environmentalists, animal rights and others make preposterous claims endlessly all claiming "scientific" veracity. Invariably their "studies" end up being unrepeatable if not out right frauds.  I choose a little common sense. If light gives us cancer then there is no hope! But hey give it a go if you think you can gain traction with that one! 

If you refuse to except any data from research well that's your choice. Folks said smoking was harmless too and industry spent billions in disinformation campaigns. Same with Arsenic in the drinking water is not bad for humans as in mercury in the air even if the data shows it is. With enough money thrown at it by industry facts get masked for a considerable period of time, but in the end the truth tends to win out and the industry has to change or move to the third world to try the same tactic. As an example it took over 50 years with the tobacco industry., but they finally lost.
Over time the adults eventually step up just sometimes their a little slow off the mark.

Kenneth Naim

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2018, 06:46:17 PM »
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Quote - How did that work for you? What light pollution reduction gains did you experience from that?

I for one was introduced to Astronomy by a teacher and became a life long enthusiast and lover of the night sky and I don't think it is a stretch to say almost everyone on CN's forums was introduced by someone.  One by one people can be swayed by the best argument of all - the Night Sky!  If you want emotion try the summer Milky Way, M42 or Saturn in a good scope.

We are on the same side and love the beauty of the Night Sky and I dare say all of us on the forum do too!

The only political solution I can think of that has worked is called North Korea although I doubt "dear leader" is an astronomer!

You didn't answer the questions. What light pollution reduction did you achieve? Please share your data and results. And I'll also reiterate my other question: What are YOUR IDEAS that will gain traction?

We got your other message loud and clear - you think the cancer message is a waste of time. Great - got it, you don't need to repeat it a third time.

But what ARE your ideas? Please share with us. If you don't have anything constructive, please let the rest of us continue the discussion without the repetitive distractions.

Thank you.

Prasanna Patel

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2018, 12:33:23 AM »
So can you share quantifiable, verifiable reductions in light pollution from your actions? Do tell.

I gave you my idea. If you want heavy handed government "solutions" count me out. Mock all you want but convincing people one at a time is the best way.  Good luck to you.

izweekwardmas

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2018, 08:54:27 AM »
Considering that streetlights/highway lights are taxpayer funded, I would think that a government solution is entirely appropriate.Residential lighting-I think light trespass should be also mitigated with ordinances. Someones' right to light their property should end when they start lighting mine.

bersrorexnutg

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Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2018, 09:45:38 AM »
Quote
Considering that streetlights/highway lights are taxpayer funded, I would think that a government solution is entirely appropriate.Residential lighting-I think light trespass should be also mitigated with ordinances. Someones' right to light their property should end when they start lighting mine.

Indeed, and this is the point. The government in most places where people access this forum are democracies. Therefore, WE are the government. WE get to decide what's right and what's not.

I like Carey's and Tony's point: Light trespass. But to educate on that, I think we need to tie that in to something that is a motivator. My thinking lately has been: SLEEP. 100% of us sleep. And many people not well - Ambien and other drugs are used to help people sleep. Blue-shifted spectrum lighting from computers and other LED screens / lights has been shown to reduce melatonin, which adversely affects sleep.

I think that's perhaps one of our best avenues to making inroads with the wider population on this - then we can use safety / crime / cancer / other issues to bolster the case.

Perhaps something like this:

<strong class="bbc">For deep sleep, aim for deep darkness. [/b]

Or... something like that. Then we can talk about how light is used, and misaimed or misdirected, and discuss better sleeping as a result of better darkness in our natural surroundings, while still maintaining the safety people believe they need.

I just strongly feel like we need a very coordinated effort on this, that is very focused (pun intended, I suppose) on one aspect of the problem that we can drive home over and over and over to have as much impact as possible. All the other points can then be used to bolster the case - but we need one that EVERYONE knows about and cares about, and would be willing to make a small change to their own homes to make a difference that isn't terribly costly.

Sleep / light trespass seems to be it, perhaps.

Thoughts?