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General Astronomy => Light Pollution Topics => Topic started by: pmethinxlamna on December 24, 2017, 12:55:47 AM

Title: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: pmethinxlamna on December 24, 2017, 12:55:47 AM
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Speech needs to create emotional reactions in order to have impact.  Psychologists tell us that emotion functions together with cognition, to help us with attention, retention and motivation.   <strong class="bbc">If the message doesn't resonate emotionally, people won't notice that, much less remember it</strong> or be moved to action.

That kind of struck me in relation to the manner we discuss pollution.  What are we using that have a psychological impact, so people listen, retain what we say, and are motivated to modify their particular lighting/behaviors - or even more importantly, participate?  What phrases do we use so people will notice, remember, and be moved to action?

I would argue we are failing on this point.  Although some in the light industry, and even larger businesses and a few municipalities, are seeing the advantages of improved lighting techniques and implementing these, the growth of light pollution has lasted, largely because those who do NOT understand about poor lighting techniques keep putting up awful lighting which contribute to the issue.  99% of light fixtures I see available in home improvement stores do not protect light properly.

As LED lighting costs come down, we will lose the ability to discuss light concerning price, as the power required to operate them is even less than incandescent / other types of lighting.  Luckily, they're directional, but only if we MAKE THAT POINT, and get it to STAY in people's minds, are we likely to really make a difference.  Otherwise, there'll be more slender and more LED lights on the market, light up the night even more than what we have today.

What phrases do we come up with this will create short, memorable, emotionally-powerful messages to receive our argument into the public world?  Any ideas we could use to drive this message home more effectively?

Should we focus on sleeping?  Security?  Security?  Crime?  All the above, but in a coordinated manner?  How do we craft our message so it's emotionally-charged, and so, memorable?
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Duane Berhane on December 24, 2017, 10:16:59 AM
Well, for starters, I would guess that the majority of humanity don't regard light as a pollutant.   So we've got a huge job right there.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Darius Swick on December 24, 2017, 11:22:43 AM
I consider the thousands of substandard bridges and roads in this nation and the billions squandered on light pollution within the past 30 years or so.  The notion of being safe when driving on unresponsibly lit but crumbling bridges and roads, dim but def stirs emotions.  Everyone can agree its better to turn off some lights and use that money to rebuild our infrastructure.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: rennlispuring on December 27, 2017, 09:29:29 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with you all. The problem with light-spilling streetlights is that it tires out your eyes while driving, making driving conditions even more unsafe. Proper illumination is not the same as overly bright lights.Connecting this concept with the average person is a challenge because for all the advancement of civilization, will still believe that there are monsters in the dark other than criminals.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: highdabbkofi on December 28, 2017, 07:31:44 PM
I think some sort of "friendly neighbor" slogan would get to some people. Lighting not only affects the property owner but his or her neighbors. Properly shielded lighting can mean happier neighbors (no light trespass = better sleep, etc.)Unfortunately light trespass is so widespread that it isn't even seen as a problem. In city neighborhoods and densely packed suburbs you have cobra-heads at *every* telephone pole. The people living in these houses don't even know what it's like to experience darkness. They think light pouring into their windows at night is normal because it's just always been that way, instead of asking the question "why is a light meant to illuminate the street shining into my house?" I sometimes complain about the streetlight that shines onto my house and people will just say to put up black-out curtains   People just don't care. This is a great thread that brings up an excellent point. How do we get normal people to care about something like this? It affects all of us but most don't even notice or think twice about it.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: David Allen on December 30, 2017, 03:12:37 AM
Recent studies show that strong emotions do <strong class="bbc"><em class="bbc">not [/b]work with cognition - in fact the opposite: people cannot think clearly on topics where they hold opinions strongly enough to trigger their emotions.

Turning a civic issue into an emotionally loaded topic seems something many people these days are only too willing to do. The result is a polarized shouting match where there is no room for sensible solutions based on common interests. Thinking is limited to sound-bite knee-jerk retorts.

But if you want to join the slogan-shouting masses scratching each other's eyes out, that's your choice. If you get good at it, call local TV news, they love that stuff, especially if you can incite violence.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Michael Presley on December 31, 2017, 03:47:53 PM
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The thought of not being safe while driving on unresponsibly lit but crumbling roads and bridges, dark but def stirs emotions. Everyone can agree its better to switch off some lights and use that money to rebuild our infrastructure.

This is an interesting thought; juxtaposing images of bridges that have collapsed while showing overlit areas that are glaringly bright is an interesting idea to keep in mind. Maybe something to that.... good thought.<p class="citation">QuoteI think some sort of "friendly neighbor" slogan would get to some people. Lighting not only affects the property owner but his or her neighbors. Properly shielded lighting can mean happier neighbors (no light trespass = better sleep, etc.)

Unfortunately light trespass is so widespread that it isn't even seen as a problem....[it's seen as] normal because it's just always been that way, instead of asking the question "why is a light meant to illuminate the street shining into my house?" I sometimes complain about the streetlight that shines onto my house and people will just say to put up black-out curtains   People just don't care. This is a great thread that brings up an excellent point. How do we get normal people to care about something like this?[/quote]

Well, that's why I'm asking the question. I wonder what language we can use that will get people's attention in a way that is constructive, but pull at an emotional thread so that they WILL remember it.
<p class="citation">QuoteRecent studies show that strong emotions do <strong class="bbc"><em class="bbc">not [/b]work with cognition - in fact the opposite: people cannot think clearly on topics where they hold opinions strongly enough to trigger their emotions.[/quote]

That's a different topic. I agree that when people are emotionally overloaded they don't have good cognition skills. That's entirely different than creating a marketing idea and words that cause an emotional reaction in someone to move them to action.

Almost no one buys a new car because they NEED one. They buy it because they WANT it. That's emotion over logic. In fact, that's basic sales (read "How to win friends and influence people" or "How to master the art of selling" if you don't believe me), and that's really all I'm saying. I'm not at all suggesting we work to get people so mad they can't think straight. I'm saying, for example, to get someone to think, "Hey, that IS wrong that there's a streetlight shining in my kid's window... and there's something I can do about it too? Good... maybe I will, because I can find information to help me." That's why I made this other thread (http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5980735/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1), for example.

What I'm referring to here is getting someone to an emotional reaction that invites a positive response (in a sales/marketing kind of way), not sloganeering on a TV shoutfest. Those are entirely different things. Let's please keep this on the former point, not the latter one - nor conflate the two as being the same. Thanks.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: cieledrore on January 01, 2018, 10:17:30 AM
The other thread shows you have been patient and polite in your interactions with all the locals involved. "Good on ya", as Australians may still say.

Enforcing your own (excellent IMHO) chosen behavior patterns on others, once you get them roused, and in the face of less-than-respectful responses, may prove difficult.

Best wishes in your efforts.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: James Clayton on January 03, 2018, 09:43:15 AM
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Enforcing your own (excellent IMHO) chosen behavior patterns on others, once you get them roused, and in the face of less-than-respectful responses, may prove difficult.

As I discovered with my rather intransigent neighbor, it was more a matter of ME being roused and finding myself becoming increasingly frustrated by the continual stonewalling I received from him. But that's also why I ask the question: What language can we use? What did I overlook in that particular situation? What could I have said differently? Perhaps nothing; and indeed, that particular problem may very likely require intervention at the local political level to produce results (and then that may rouse him after all, and not positively).

But my point remains: We can use language to sway people's opinions, and often in ways that run counter to instinctive fallback reactions. What we need to do is (and I hate using this phrase because it's so overused, but it's appropriate) is to create a new paradigm with respect to lighting. And in so doing, what language can we use that makes people have an emotional reaction, and stop and think, "Yeah, that IS the right thing to do?"

They may not take action right away. But if we have changed their mind, it is shifting the paradigm.

For example:

What if we had a campaign of, I don't know, a short YouTube video. Perhaps it showed someone dealing with light shining into their window, even after they have put up light-block curtains. In other words, they've already done their part, but this light keeps them awake. If we point out that studies are showing this light is related to breast and prostate cancer, those who have been affected by those types of illnesses will have an emotional reaction. They will realize, "Hey, there's a connection between these two things!" And we can then provide a quick education about how simple this can be to fix: A shield over a light, a fixture that aims down, a light with a timer, or motion sensor.

That's what I mean: We need to hit upon a point that MEANS something to others. Light pollution means something to amateur astronomers, but what is the response from others? "Drive out to the country if you want to see the stars!" What's the subtext there? "That's YOUR problem, not mine, and I need the light for security / safety / etc."

We need to shift that. We need to point out that cities in the U.K. that have turned off all their streetlights saw crime DROP. People have almost ubiquitous cell phones now. That gives everyone a flashlight/torch. If not, how much is a flashlight now? $1? $2? It's a nominal cost compared to lighting everything all day long. The issue of sleep is another one, which relates to the melatonin issue. That one ties in with the breast and prostate cancer issue. The AMA has a resolution out there thanks to Dr. Mario Motta that talks about lighting at night with respect to older persons and glare. Lots of things to touch on, but what's the best way?

So I'm asking for what ideas we can use to create the emotional connection with turning lights off, to get people to NOT be "scared of the dark," to get them to think, "Yes, dark at night IS better" and for a valid, emotionally-appealing reason. A car salesman can argue logic all day long, and make zero sales. We can argue logic all day (or night!) long on light pollution, and get nowhere too. We need to hit the emotionally-appealing notes coupled WITH the logic to shift the lighting paradigm that exists.

We do that? We'll see movement on this issue in people's minds. I'm just looking for what those notes are or might be, and there will be different things that appeal to different people. The more we can identify, the more we can touch on.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: acoplochop on January 08, 2018, 07:57:51 PM
…for what it’s worth:The experience with TV adds trying to get folks to increase re-cycling of bottles, cans, etc found the following: Adds trying to convince people that re-cycling was good for the environment resulted in no noticeable change in re-cycle rates. Adds showing local people actually re-cycling *did* improve the rate. Apparently people are motivated by seeing others “do good”.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Corey Gibson on January 09, 2018, 01:24:03 AM
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…for what it’s worth:

The experience with TV adds trying to get folks to increase re-cycling of bottles, cans, etc found the following: Adds trying to convince people that re-cycling was good for the environment resulted in no noticeable change in re-cycle rates. Adds showing local people actually re-cycling *did* improve the rate. Apparently people are motivated by seeing others “do good”.

I'd say that's worth quite a bit... good insight, George! Thanks!
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: unverjacea on January 10, 2018, 08:50:02 AM
Using emotional language appeals (obviously)  to emotions and not the intellect. Many people like me resent this manipulation and would prefer arguments that focus on economics (energy savings) and other factual information. Manipulation turns people off.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Paul Syring on January 10, 2018, 12:39:56 PM
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Using emotional language appeals (obviously)  to emotions and not the intellect. Many people like me resent this manipulation and would prefer arguments that focus on economics (energy savings) and other factual information. Manipulation turns people off.

In other words, you need to be manipulated at a more sophisticated level. There's a quote about lies and statistics that comes to mind ...

All of us make decisions based on emotions -- as well we should. Intellect is useful for matching up actions with goals, but it can't generate goals all on its lonesome. You can't get an "ought" from an "is."
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Daniel Ferguson on January 11, 2018, 02:59:43 PM
Manipulation is wrong. You can educate people and maybe invite them to view through your scope and perhaps an opportunity will open up to explain the negative effects of light pollution.  Getting snarky does not lend credibility.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: ciomapicsta on January 11, 2018, 11:00:40 PM
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Using emotional language appeals (obviously)  to emotions and not the intellect. Many people like me resent this manipulation and would prefer arguments that focus on economics (energy savings) and other factual information. Manipulation turns people off.


Our intellect tells us what we NEED.
Our emotions tell us what we WANT.

Gale
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Dave Hawkins on January 12, 2018, 04:45:41 AM
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Manipulation is wrong. You can educate people ...
In my cynical old age, I don't see a clear line between manipulation and education. I always aim to help people think for themselves -- but it's something that most people are profoundly reluctant to do. Educating -- literally, leading people out (of their self-imposed shells) -- doesn't just happen; it's something that has to be strategized, sort of like fighting a war. Manipulation, in other words.And while aiming primarily at helping people think for themselves, there's no way around the fact that I also want them to see things from my point of view. You can admit that fact or not, but you'll always do it.I think the main thing is to be honest with yourself, and then you will also be honest with others. In this case, it means admitting that there are both up and down sides to outdoor lighting. And that lack of evidence that lighting deters crime is not at all the same thing as evidence that lighting does not deter crime. And that while light pollution may have very minor ecological downsides (not so minor for sea turtles -- but they're the rare exception), it's primarily a quality-of-life issue.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Mario Evans on January 12, 2018, 08:38:15 AM
After you've finally persuaded your neighbor they're safer without lights, don't sneak up behind them one night and shout "BOO!"
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: ceisilipan on January 12, 2018, 05:54:21 PM
Lighting may be linked to increased cancer risk and if that is verified and the connection between the two disseminated broadly, then maybe we will make more progress.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: ramapali on January 12, 2018, 06:31:07 PM
Use emotional language like "Baby rabbits/kittens/puppies can't fall asleep at night because of your lights that use energy produced by RADIOACTIVE <strong class="bbc">nukular[/b] reactors and those evil CO2-spewing coal plants".
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: xgamodrakmu on January 13, 2018, 01:53:00 PM
My contribution:Define light pollution in people's mind in terms of light shining directly into their eyes at night. No one likes that. It is annoying and a safety hazard as well since it reduces visibility.Push for "safe , efficient lighting - shine light where its needed".
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: maulaepretag on January 13, 2018, 11:38:23 PM
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My contribution:

Define light pollution in people's mind in terms of light shining directly into their eyes at night.

No one likes that. It is annoying and a safety hazard as well since it reduces visibility.

Push for "safe , efficient lighting - shine light where its needed".

I agree 100%. Many, many people know and hate light trespass. That's the appropriate handle.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Gilbert Quintana on January 17, 2018, 11:46:53 PM
I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that the idea of light pollution hadn't crossed my mind much until very recently. Reading this forum and seeing the pollution map have really had an affect on me. I grew up in the country and just happened to spend summers in one of the few blue spots east of the Mississippi, I've always assumed 'light pullution is a city thing' if that thinking makes sense. I recently watched a TED talk where they did a study of techniques to decrease energy consumption, what was found was that the only effective method was sending out monthly reminders that said "your neighbor is doing better than you", people really respond to competition and the fear of being inferior in funny ways. Final thought, people have to see value in not light polluting, this I assume is mostly done through outreach and education.  There are lots of folks out there right now trying to be as green as they can be, but light pollution is rarely brought up,  my guess is most of these people would probably do their part if they simply knew what to do and why.-Rusty
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Tim Jauregui on January 20, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
We definitely don't want to use fear mongering type of language. Although it's kind of amusing to me to imagine an ad campaign like: "Your lighting makes you feel safe... but there's a murderer lurking in the shadows caused by your bright spotlights... your cancer risk is rising... you can't sleep properly and will die a horrible death..." (All done in a very deep, ominous voice) Certainly if people see that too much lighting can have a negative impact, not just on the night sky, but on their wallets, their health, and their safety, we can hope to see improvement. The only problem can come from the electric and lighting companies themselves, who have very deep pockets and can hire the very best ad agencies, etc, to easily outdo any possible public service ads.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Jessie Forbes on January 21, 2018, 02:51:29 AM
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Lighting may be linked to increased cancer risk and if that is verified and the connection between the two disseminated broadly, then maybe we will make more progress.
These days people with agendas claim EVERYTHING gives you cancer!

That type of over the top claim gets a lot of eye rolls and will marginalize you really fast. These days everyone with a political agenda has used hyperbole to the point that people just tune it out. Life goes on and no one is going to equate their porch light with cancer.

Personally I think that real world experience will convince more people than anything else. Invite your neighbors and friends to a star party which will open up opportunities to explain light pollution.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Adam Martin on January 21, 2018, 07:51:04 AM
These days you can't turn on a TV or radio without being bombarded with transparently manipulative "public service" announcements and commercials making over the top claims. Anymore I just turn them off or mute them. I agree that outdoor lighting is really a quality of life issue. The vast majority of people are worried about making ends meet, not street lights. Claims of cancer and higher or lower crime rates are probably impossible to quantify if you believe them at all.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: imasatex on January 22, 2018, 10:42:19 PM
Yes so many public service announcements that turn off is very quick.  I remember hearing about a campaign that didn't say anything bad but just said that your neighbours are doing better than you,  and they increased recycling by 20% within the first month of the program.  Maybe a campaign that said your neighbour is saving more energy and can afford that bigger, better whatever would work.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Danny Cruz on January 23, 2018, 10:52:28 AM
I would not suggest over the top or unsupported claims. The fact that many things give you cancer may contribute to general despair-why bother if everything kills you? The fact that many things we do cause cancer is symptomatic of our general idiocy in regards to our lack, as a species, of scruples regarding chemical use and disposal.But if there a link, it can't hurt to disseminate the info. If people are bombarded by chemicals and their immune systems are overtaxed, that lack of melatonin might be the tipping point health wise.All of these issues:light trespass,quality of life, money and environmental and personal health issue need to be addressed.If people are inured to threats in our hyper paranoid culture, then they are. That should not be an argument for inaction.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Quas Padilla on January 26, 2018, 01:03:48 AM
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Invite your neighbors and friends to a star party which will open up opportunities to explain light pollution. 

How did that work for you? What light pollution reduction gains did you experience from that?
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: James Przystup on January 26, 2018, 01:37:51 AM
People live longer and longer and longer in spite of all the gloom and doom fear mongering!
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Tyler King on January 31, 2018, 01:53:15 AM
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How did that work for you? What light pollution reduction gains did you experience from that?
It might get your neighbor to do something about that 1000 watt search light aimed at your back yard!  The alternative seems to be heavy handed tactics such as laws to outlaw whatever you don't like. Now don't get me wrong, darks skies are a worthy goal but tactics like that can backfire. These days is seems everyone with a pet cause wants all their likes subsidized and their dislikes outlawed. Every agenda group out there has paid lobyists looking to outlaw many, many things you and I enjoy. Enough is enough.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: bayretide on January 31, 2018, 07:32:04 AM
True. People are living longer and longer, but cancer rates are very high compared to historical levels.This is not due to the fact that the burgeoning population of elderly folks are getting cancer either.I think that laws regulating lighting are absolutely appropriate.Has generating any awareness created the shift or political will to do something about light pollution? Not yet and it does not look good for the future.Does my neighbor enjoys his floodlights? I seriously doubt it. He is probably plopped down in front of the TV rather than looking out lovingly at the wall of light over his driveway. He, like many others, are probably unaware of the lights or are taking false comfort in the "force field of light" that magically repels intruders.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: John Daniels on January 31, 2018, 11:47:06 AM
Peoples innate fear of the dark is the issue. Crime, especially in big cities drives people indoors and to put bars on the windows and lights on the yard, which are natural reactions.  As far as cancer, I seriously doubt any verifiable scientific case could ever be made, putting that as your cause won't gain any traction and could end up painting amateur astronomers as kooks in the fringe.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: elunmolunch on February 02, 2018, 08:02:52 PM
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As far as cancer, I seriously doubt any verifiable scientific case could ever be made
Because I am a eternally-curious person, on what scientific basis are you making this claim? What scientific facts lead you to have such doubts?Personally, I'm inclined to believe science, because I do amateur astronomy, and I believe how far stars really are from us, based on science. I believe what they are made of, based on science. Therefore, I am also inclined to believe well-respected researchers such as Dr. David Blask, Dr. George Brainard and Dr. Charles Czeisler write scientific papers based on scientific studies of the harm light can cause. Besides, people believe politicians on FAR less evidence and facts (usually based on... emotionally powerful language - see how we come full circle?). So I will try to re-direct this discussion back to what I originally asked about: Emotionally powerful language that can MOVE people's ideas about light. Yes, fear is a powerful motivator, and as much as adults don't want to admit it, a lot of them ARE probably afraid of the dark.So why can't we find ways to combat that, rather than brushing it off before even trying by suggesting we'd be branded as "kooks"? Plenty of people out there DO believe science. The point is, how can WE, the amateur astronomy community, those with some of the best understanding of this issue, word it in ways that will move people to make changes? And as Tony Flanders rightly pointed out, people already make decisions based on emotion. It's not manipulation. It's using basic sales techniques. If we want to move people's minds on this issue, we need to use sales techniques, or you know what will happen? We'll keep losing more of the night sky. I don't find that a very satisfying direction to go. So TCW, what ideas do you have that will have traction? I originally asked, "What phrases can we come up with that will create short, memorable, emotionally-powerful messages to get our argument into the public sphere? I would be glad for you to share your positive ideas which we can use to drive this message home more effectively.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Rasheed Grayson on February 02, 2018, 08:20:30 PM
Try a campaign telling people street lights give them cancer and what results you get. Personally I think it is impossible to separate out the effects of artificial light from the trillions of other environmental factors. What are you going to use as a control group?  Aborigines in the deepest Amazon with 30 year life spans?

Every agenda group out there be they vegans, radical environmentalists, animal rights and others make preposterous claims endlessly all claiming "scientific" veracity. Invariably their "studies" end up being unrepeatable if not out right frauds.  I choose a little common sense. If light gives us cancer then there is no hope! But hey give it a go if you think you can gain traction with that one!
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: bardeperdi on February 03, 2018, 05:33:59 AM
Quote - How did that work for you? What light pollution reduction gains did you experience from that? I for one was introduced to Astronomy by a teacher and became a life long enthusiast and lover of the night sky and I don't think it is a stretch to say almost everyone on CN's forums was introduced by someone.  One by one people can be swayed by the best argument of all - the Night Sky!  If you want emotion try the summer Milky Way, M42 or Saturn in a good scope.We are on the same side and love the beauty of the Night Sky and I dare say all of us on the forum do too! The only political solution I can think of that has worked is called North Korea although I doubt "dear leader" is an astronomer!
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Sean Schaefer on February 04, 2018, 10:24:56 AM
Quote
Try a campaign telling people street lights give them cancer and what results you get. Personally I think it is impossible to separate out the effects of artificial light from the trillions of other environmental factors. What are you going to use as a control group?  Aborigines in the deepest Amazon with 30 year life spans?

Every agenda group out there be they vegans, radical environmentalists, animal rights and others make preposterous claims endlessly all claiming "scientific" veracity. Invariably their "studies" end up being unrepeatable if not out right frauds.  I choose a little common sense. If light gives us cancer then there is no hope! But hey give it a go if you think you can gain traction with that one! 

If you refuse to except any data from research well that's your choice. Folks said smoking was harmless too and industry spent billions in disinformation campaigns. Same with Arsenic in the drinking water is not bad for humans as in mercury in the air even if the data shows it is. With enough money thrown at it by industry facts get masked for a considerable period of time, but in the end the truth tends to win out and the industry has to change or move to the third world to try the same tactic. As an example it took over 50 years with the tobacco industry., but they finally lost.
Over time the adults eventually step up just sometimes their a little slow off the mark.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Kenneth Naim on February 08, 2018, 06:46:17 PM
Quote
Quote - How did that work for you? What light pollution reduction gains did you experience from that?

I for one was introduced to Astronomy by a teacher and became a life long enthusiast and lover of the night sky and I don't think it is a stretch to say almost everyone on CN's forums was introduced by someone.  One by one people can be swayed by the best argument of all - the Night Sky!  If you want emotion try the summer Milky Way, M42 or Saturn in a good scope.

We are on the same side and love the beauty of the Night Sky and I dare say all of us on the forum do too!

The only political solution I can think of that has worked is called North Korea although I doubt "dear leader" is an astronomer!

You didn't answer the questions. What light pollution reduction did you achieve? Please share your data and results. And I'll also reiterate my other question: What are YOUR IDEAS that will gain traction?

We got your other message loud and clear - you think the cancer message is a waste of time. Great - got it, you don't need to repeat it a third time.

But what ARE your ideas? Please share with us. If you don't have anything constructive, please let the rest of us continue the discussion without the repetitive distractions.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: Prasanna Patel on February 09, 2018, 12:33:23 AM
So can you share quantifiable, verifiable reductions in light pollution from your actions? Do tell.

I gave you my idea. If you want heavy handed government "solutions" count me out. Mock all you want but convincing people one at a time is the best way.  Good luck to you.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: izweekwardmas on February 09, 2018, 08:54:27 AM
Considering that streetlights/highway lights are taxpayer funded, I would think that a government solution is entirely appropriate.Residential lighting-I think light trespass should be also mitigated with ordinances. Someones' right to light their property should end when they start lighting mine.
Title: Re: Emotionally powerful language for light pollution
Post by: bersrorexnutg on February 09, 2018, 09:45:38 AM
Quote
Considering that streetlights/highway lights are taxpayer funded, I would think that a government solution is entirely appropriate.Residential lighting-I think light trespass should be also mitigated with ordinances. Someones' right to light their property should end when they start lighting mine.

Indeed, and this is the point. The government in most places where people access this forum are democracies. Therefore, WE are the government. WE get to decide what's right and what's not.

I like Carey's and Tony's point: Light trespass. But to educate on that, I think we need to tie that in to something that is a motivator. My thinking lately has been: SLEEP. 100% of us sleep. And many people not well - Ambien and other drugs are used to help people sleep. Blue-shifted spectrum lighting from computers and other LED screens / lights has been shown to reduce melatonin, which adversely affects sleep.

I think that's perhaps one of our best avenues to making inroads with the wider population on this - then we can use safety / crime / cancer / other issues to bolster the case.

Perhaps something like this:

<strong class="bbc">For deep sleep, aim for deep darkness. [/b]

Or... something like that. Then we can talk about how light is used, and misaimed or misdirected, and discuss better sleeping as a result of better darkness in our natural surroundings, while still maintaining the safety people believe they need.

I just strongly feel like we need a very coordinated effort on this, that is very focused (pun intended, I suppose) on one aspect of the problem that we can drive home over and over and over to have as much impact as possible. All the other points can then be used to bolster the case - but we need one that EVERYONE knows about and cares about, and would be willing to make a small change to their own homes to make a difference that isn't terribly costly.

Sleep / light trespass seems to be it, perhaps.

Thoughts?