Author Topic: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?  (Read 170 times)

acoplochop

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How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« on: December 29, 2017, 12:10:24 AM »
Saw these CNN stories today:

http://www.cnn.com/2...alth/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2...dies/index.html

It would seem a good time to follow up with further LP info for the public.



unllamerblood

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2017, 05:40:33 PM »
Sweet! "Twenty-five cities in Connecticut are also following the medical association's guidelines by installing LED streetlights of 3000K or lower..."

Sean Meyer

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 07:53:43 AM »
Quote
Sweet! "Twenty-five cities in Connecticut are also following the medical association's guidelines by installing LED streetlights of 3000K or lower..."

I wonder if mine is one of them. The new lights here in Stamford are a soft yellow-white color.

John Fimbres

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 10:31:15 AM »
The light from the "blue" LEDs and CFLs (both as ambient light) sure seems to scatter and cause more glare than the nearby HPS.

The general public doesn't seem to spend much time outdoors at night, so such phenomenon are not noticed by them much, if at all.

aceslaise

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 12:02:51 PM »
This is some good information. I am getting interviewed by my paper next week.

If anyone wants to help, go the the Shakopee Valley News Facebook site and comment on a previous story. (you'll have to scroll down a bit until you find it)

https://www.facebook.com/shakopeenews/

Shakopee is a suburb of Minneapolis.

Daniel Ross

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 10:20:36 AM »
Quote
This is some good information. I am getting interviewed by my paper next week.

If anyone wants to help, go the the Shakopee Valley News Facebook site and comment on a previous story. (you'll have to scroll down a bit until you find it)

https://www.facebook.com/shakopeenews/

Shakopee is a suburb of Minneapolis.

You could mention that 99.9% of the time in 99.9% of places that are illuminated, there is nobody present, nothing going on, and no reason to shine the lights, but that the lights mess up the night sky 100% of the time, over 100% of the area.

Daniel Horton

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 11:21:03 AM »
Quote
Quote

This is some good information. I am getting interviewed by my paper next week.

If anyone wants to help, go the the Shakopee Valley News Facebook site and comment on a previous story. (you'll have to scroll down a bit until you find it)

https://www.facebook.com/shakopeenews/

Shakopee is a suburb of Minneapolis.

You could mention that 99.9% of the time in 99.9% of places that are illuminated, there is nobody present, nothing going on, and no reason the shine the lights, but that the lights mess up the night sky 100% of the time, over 100% of the area.
Thanks, Nicely put. I have stolen your words...and will use them.

Regarding the facebook posting, even if just a couple of CN folks posted, it would keep the story relevant. If you live in a town with <=3000K lights, a quick post about how nice they are will do wonders....

unllamerblood

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 12:04:50 AM »
Quote
Quote

Quote

This is some good information. I am getting interviewed by my paper next week.

If anyone wants to help, go the the Shakopee Valley News Facebook site and comment on a previous story. (you'll have to scroll down a bit until you find it)

https://www.facebook.com/shakopeenews/

Shakopee is a suburb of Minneapolis.

You could mention that 99.9% of the time in 99.9% of places that are illuminated, there is nobody present, nothing going on, and no reason the shine the lights, but that the lights mess up the night sky 100% of the time, over 100% of the area.
Thanks, Nicely put. I have stolen your words...and will use them.

Regarding the facebook posting, even if just a couple of CN folks posted, it would keep the story relevant. If you live in a town with <=3000K lights, a quick post about how nice they are will do wonders....
Just proofread what I wrote, sometimes I type too fast!

handvestlazo

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2018, 06:53:00 PM »
I made things worse (though there is a small chance that I can do some good with the upcoming newspaper interview this week).

I again ask that if any CN member could post something on the local newspaper facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/shakopeenews/(scroll down quite a bit). Just a note saying something like, ".. Unlike Shakopee, my city follows IDA recommendations and the new lights are great!")

My contact with city officials started in the middle of 2016. It consisted of the usual links to the IDA materials, pointing out how local cities are doing things correct, etc. A couple of Minnesota Astronomical Society members wrote emails (but they weren't local). I asked the IDA for help, but did not get a reply.  The contact frequency was on the order of once per month or less.

But overall, I was basically the only one asking the leaders to do the right thing. One person is easily ignored.

This is what I am up against:

The city engineer Bruce Loney (now retired) said this in an email to a lighting consultant. (I think I was accidentally cc:ed):

“…See this email and the persistence of this guy on led’s . Is it safe to say that his claim that led’s are unhealthy is not proven and is a speculation. I think our lights are 4000 k and I thought the one study was recommending lights between 3000 and 4000 k. he wants to contact you but I am going to say no….”

He later says "...(i)n fact very few companies make the 2700K light according to our utility staff. The one person recommending 2700K is one opinion..."

I had an interesting response from a city council member Cathi Mocol.

"...I understand you have a passion for the stars and that is not being dismissed. However, when you first reached out you suggested it was in regards to a health concern with the lighting in Shakopee and now it comes to light that you represent International Dark Sky Association. First strike for me...." (Note: I'm not a member of the IDA)

Again, if anyone out there is going to start an effort to lobby local officials to put in good lights, make sure you have the numbers and are well organized. If you are only one person, don't do it.

I suspect I was just put the the "tree hugging, tin foil hat wearing, environmental extremest kook" category.

So frustrating.

Bill Pham

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2018, 01:18:51 AM »
Quote
I had an interesting response from a city council member Cathi Mocol.

"...I understand you have a passion for the stars and that is not being dismissed. However, when you first reached out you suggested it was in regards to a health concern with the lighting in Shakopee and now it comes to light that you represent International Dark Sky Association. First strike for me...." (Note: I'm not a member of the IDA).....

Politicians are only used to dealing with single-issue voters. You got her all confused. (OK in LP forum???)

Run for her office, despite its being a step down in prestige.

neulosali

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 01:39:35 AM »
Quote
Quote
...
I had an interesting response from a city council member Cathi Mocol.

"...I understand you have a passion for the stars and that is not being dismissed. However, when you first reached out you suggested it was in regards to a health concern with the lighting in Shakopee and now it comes to light that you represent International Dark Sky Association. First strike for me...." (Note: I'm not a member of the IDA).....

Politicians are only used to dealing with single-issue voters. You got her all confused. (OK in LP forum???)

Run for her office, despite its being a step down in prestige.

LP forum rules "While CN does not typically allow politics, this is one forum in which the discussion of legislation dealing with this matter is permitted. This is a problem that will eventually affect all of us to one degree or another."

So, it's all good to discuss specifics. All is fair in love, war and politics.

I took the same oath of office as the city council takes (not elected, but appointed to city commissions). The oath of office includes "...preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.." The first amendment to the constitution ensure freedom of assembly and association. I found it very puzzling that my perceived association with a legitimate group (IDA) was so offensive to her.

Curious, I googled her name and stuff like this came up.http://minnesota.cbs...s-out-of-money/

Seeing that, and her puzzling response about the IDA, I determined it best to not even try to reason with her.

All, wish me luck with my interview this week... and again... if anyone wants to scroll down and put a simple comment in the paper facebook page, go ahead.https://www.facebook.com/shakopeenews/

Chris Young

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2018, 05:36:31 AM »
Quote
...

I again ask that if any CN member could post something on the local newspaper facebookhttps://www.facebook.com/shakopeenews/(scroll down quite a bit). Just a note saying something like, ".. Unlike Shakopee, my city follows IDA recommendations and the new lights are great!")

...
Finding anything important on Fakebook is about as easy as finding a Shakespeare sonnet among all the pages that those monkeys are typing on. But I'll keep looking.

PS: OK, found it, I think, a few stories down from the story about the cat in the drain.

longpetdowntown

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2018, 01:26:51 PM »
Do these fixtures allow for different models/colors of LEDs to be installed?

Is there anything to prevent a <3000K bulb from being replaced by a 4000K bulb someday? Or vice versa?

contpeeresto

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2018, 11:07:40 PM »
Quote
I like this:

 "Shakopee is doing a combination of the more harmful 4000K lights and the more pleasing (and just as bright) 3000K lights."

If the lights are HARMFUL why are you installing them?!

You found it! I picked my words carefully.

I asked the Public Utility Director for a 3000K light and and when the shield will be put in (asking for a time commitment is a good old fashioned project management technique):

"...Later this week or early next week. We have a meeting scheduled to discuss these types of requests with our utilities manager and the city engineer to get direction before we make any adjustments. We can and will install the shield on the panel facing your house, but the request to change to a less blue spectrum LED needs to be discussed. We would want to do both at the same time of course.
Thanks,
Joe..."

So, he was a bit wishy washy on any commitment to put in the 3000K light.

My total guess is that, since more progressive cities (like Chicago, San Francisco, the remaining Burroughs of NYC, etc) are using the 3000K (or lower) lights, there is a huge surplus of the harmful 4000K lights that the lighting companies want to get rid of. This means "cheaper."

The policy memo states "Residential streets, the recommendation is for either a 4000 K or 3000 K LED standard to allow flexibility." I think "to allow flexibility" means "we won't use 3000K because it is more expensive".

At this point, all lights will be 4000K and none are IDA Compliant. A 'nod' to 3000K is a way to "quell" the people about the "perceived" heath issues. (the two quoted words are actually from the city policy). They have no intention of following IDA standards..

tingranseattters

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2018, 01:32:01 AM »
Quote
Do these fixtures allow for different models/colors of LEDs to be installed?

Is there anything to prevent a <3000K bulb from being replaced by a 4000K bulb someday? Or vice versa?

I think that's possible. However, these things last 20 years and that's a long time. The non IDA 4000K "Coach" lantern they installed by my house is really hideous.

To give the engineers some credit.... Basically they can now fine tune lighting specs without having to change the entire city lighting policy. And that's a good thing as the city council doesn't consist of very technical people. As you say... easily confused....