Author Topic: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?  (Read 546 times)

canreosenbi

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2018, 01:43:17 AM »
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Do these fixtures allow for different models/colors of LEDs to be installed?

Is there anything to prevent a <3000K bulb from being replaced by a 4000K bulb someday? Or vice versa?

I think that's possible. However, these things last 20 years and that's a long time. The non IDA 4000K "Coach" lantern they installed by my house is really hideous.

To give the engineers some credit.... Basically they can now fine tune lighting specs without having to change the entire city lighting policy. And that's a good thing as the city council doesn't consist of very technical people. As you say... easily confused....
What I was wondering with regard to the light fixtures in Shakopee is whether a bulb color change requires that an entire fixture be replaced.

Technically, the LEDs that I use at home fit the old sockets, but some of the fixtures don't allow enough airflow for the bulb to stay cool enough, so the bulbs would fail prematurely. So I will eventually need to modify most or all of my fixtures.

The city should at least install fixtures that allow for 2700K bulbs in order to head off any future objections to changing to that color temp.

Jeremiah Greer

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2018, 08:19:48 AM »
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LP forum rules "While CN does not typically allow politics, this is one forum in which the discussion of legislation dealing with this matter is permitted. This is a problem that will eventually affect all of us to one degree or another."
So, it's all good to discuss specifics. All is fair in love, war and politics.
No, it is not all good. Legislation can be discussed, but that is as far as politics goes here. So, no not all is fair in love, war, and especially politics here.

So, let's tread lightly here.

stancacoho

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2018, 03:13:24 PM »
If we try to support, propose or modify legislation about light pollution, we will find ourselves dealing with politicians, obviously. So while it is perfectly reasonable to us, as astronomers, to be concerned about light pollution AND be concerned about health effects of bad lighting, when we do so, politicians might look at that and then try to apply their own codes of ethics (whatever those ethics are) to us and misjudge us.

If we can't openly discuss such problems among ourselves, as astronomers, we are doomed as far as light pollution legislation is concerned.

Chris Mancia

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2018, 03:43:21 PM »
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If we can't openly discuss such problems among ourselves, as astronomers, we are doomed as far as light pollution legislation is concerned.
As long as the rules/guidelines of the site is followed, discussion is certainly allowed. If anyone has a problem, feel free to contact an Administrator, as we do not discuss any moderating on the open forums, nor do the Moderators make the rules.

Now, back to the discussion!

Randal Samuels

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2018, 03:33:33 PM »
OK, so how would we deal with a situation similar to the one where another poster was "discredited" by a politician who seemed to find his apparent support of the IDA (a political organization or not?) as fishy?

Aaron Maggot

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2018, 11:34:56 PM »
Please contact a moderator or administrator privately, if you don't understand the rules here. The forums are not for open discussion of policies of CN.

brunenrizap

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2018, 12:08:00 AM »
Wow, the rules got a littleKafkaesque here.

Anyway. I'll put a link to the published story here.

Politics is a rough and tumble game of egos, power struggles, extremists of all leanings, narcissists, bullies and victims, imbeciles, geniuses and an occasional magnanimous person. It's icky and nauseating. But it's all we have.

The best quote I've seen on this is by darkskyaz:

<p style="margin-left:40px">"When it comes to addressing the problem of light pollution, it matters not so much what you say, it matters more that you say it. It matters not so much what you do, it matters that you do it. There are many ways to approach the subject of light pollution. Go with what you know. Whatever you know, it is probably more than 99% of the people around you know, so speak up.
Of all the intractable problems that humanity faces, none is easier to solve than the problem of light pollution. Let me repeat: OF ALL THE INTRACTABLE PROBLEMS THAT HUMANITY FACES, NONE IS EASIER TO SOLVE THAN THE PROBLEM OF LIGHT POLLUTION. There are no technological barriers that need to be scaled, no injustice that needs to be squared, no wealth that needs to be distributed. It all comes down to distributing knowledge. Knowledge about how light works, (we are astronomers, so we know about light), knowledge about how the human eye interacts with light, and knowledge about how much light is really NEEDED to perform tasks. Our task really amounts to the equivalent of persuading people to put wheels on their suitcases, because that about level of technicality we are talking about. One of history's amusing paradoxes is that we landed on the Moon before we thought about putting wheels on suit cases. Maybe next we can get people to put shields on their lights."

<p style="margin-left:40px">
I'm doing something, I'm speaking up. Everything to gain, nothing to lose.

Alex Strouth

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2018, 02:45:36 AM »
Quote
.....

Anyway. I'll put a link to the published story here.

Politics is a rough and tumble game of egos, power struggles, extremists of all leanings, narcissists, bullies and victims, imbeciles, geniuses and an occasional magnanimous person. It's icky and nauseating. But it's all we have.

The best quote I've seen on this is by darkskyaz:

<p style="margin-left:40px">"When it comes to addressing the problem of light pollution, it matters not so much what you say, it matters more that you say it. It matters not so much what you do, it matters that you do it. There are many ways to approach the subject of light pollution. Go with what you know. Whatever you know, it is probably more than 99% of the people around you know, so speak up.
Of all the intractable problems that humanity faces, none is easier to solve than the problem of light pollution. Let me repeat: OF ALL THE INTRACTABLE PROBLEMS THAT HUMANITY FACES, NONE IS EASIER TO SOLVE THAN THE PROBLEM OF LIGHT POLLUTION. There are no technological barriers that need to be scaled, no injustice that needs to be squared, no wealth that needs to be distributed. It all comes down to distributing knowledge. Knowledge about how light works, (we are astronomers, so we know about light), knowledge about how the human eye interacts with light, and knowledge about how much light is really NEEDED to perform tasks. Our task really amounts to the equivalent of persuading people to put wheels on their suitcases, because that about level of technicality we are talking about. One of history's amusing paradoxes is that we landed on the Moon before we thought about putting wheels on suit cases. Maybe next we can get people to put shields on their lights."

<p style="margin-left:40px">
I'm doing something, I'm speaking up. Everything to gain, nothing to lose.

I commend you for doing something and making your voice heard.

As astronomers, we know more about lighting and science than the typical politician. One big problem is, the typical politician isn't aware of that and thinks otherwise. Anything you say which doesn't jibe with what they think they know, gets you labeled in some negative way.

Wheels on suitcases? The rocket scientists were too busy working for Boeing and not for the suitcase makers. At least those commercials featuring the gorilla were funny. The first few hundred times.

Kapil Majmudar

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2018, 10:25:43 AM »
Change does not occur if we all sing Kumbuya, turn the other cheek, lock forum threads and surround ourselves with tarps.

Make some noise. Educated the powers that be. Write letters. Talk to reporters. Keep the topic relevant.

To the Original Poster @Relativist, what are your thoughts about what was said in this thread?

--Jay

Nicholas Becker

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2018, 12:10:02 PM »
"lock forum threads"

If anyone has a problem with moderating, contact an Administrator privately. We do not discuss moderating on the open forums.

<p class="citation">Quote

Make some noise. Educated the powers that be. Write letters. Talk to reporters. Keep the topic relevant
[/quote]
This is great advice, BTW!

enmofinwins

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2018, 02:55:35 AM »
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Saw these CNN stories today:

http://www.cnn.com/2...alth/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2...dies/index.html

It would seem a good time to follow up with further LP info for the public.

Such discussions about health effects of lighting ignore the problem of light pollution's effects on astronomy, so the CNN articles don't really help very much.

What is needed is to keep both healthy light and unhealthy light away from where it's NOT wanted.

ecapwaiwa

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2018, 03:49:47 AM »
I use a Baader Moon and Skyglow filter.

And have let the Whatever-It-Is clinging to my back fence grow to 8-9 feet tall.
So I have a living "tarp" for the riff-raff condoland across the drainage ditch behind me.

But ultimately, I could move...

highdabbkofi

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2018, 11:28:29 AM »
Quote
I use a Baader Moon and Skyglow filter.

And have let the Whatever-It-Is clinging to my back fence grow to 8-9 feet tall.
So I have a living "tarp" for the riff-raff condoland across the drainage ditch behind me.

But ultimately, I could move...

The various filters are useless against the wide spectrum LEDs.

(the following is not related to SonnyE post. It's a general commentary)

Tarps (whether organic or man made)..... sigh..... The answer is always "tarps."

I'm getting sick and tired of being on the passive/defensive side.

Organization, activism (and dare I say 'agitation' as other worthwhile efforts have used), education and the free exchange of ideas (even ideas (legal) that make some uncomfortable) give us a chance. I am doing this.   

Everyone reading this should contact their elected and appointed leaders. Contact their utility engineers. Write letters to the editor. This forum is an "echo chamber"... we're all preaching to the choir.

Lamar Davies

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Re: How are LP stories like these helping or hurting the issue?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2018, 10:05:21 PM »
Quote
Quote

I use a Baader Moon and Skyglow filter.

And have let the Whatever-It-Is clinging to my back fence grow to 8-9 feet tall.
So I have a living "tarp" for the riff-raff condoland across the drainage ditch behind me.

But ultimately, I could move...

The various filters are useless against the wide spectrum LEDs.

(the following is not related to SonnyE post. It's a general commentary)

Tarps (whether organic or man made)..... sigh..... The answer is always "tarps."

I'm getting sick and tired of being on the passive/defensive side.

Organization, activism (and dare I say 'agitation' as other worthwhile efforts have used), education and the free exchange of ideas (even ideas (legal) that make some uncomfortable) give us a chance. I am doing this.   

Everyone reading this should contact their elected and appointed leaders. Contact their utility engineers. Write letters to the editor. This forum is an "echo chamber"... we're all preaching to the choir.
You might want to take your own advice.
But I notice you do not list where you are.
People, like my elderly next door neighbors, believe that exterior lights will deter crime. The sheriff said so....
Really? All exterior lighting deters is a criminal in flight from tripping.
But the belief and myth continues.
And short of major power outages, light pollution is here to stay, long after we are gone.

But, do feel free to bang your drum...

Meanwhile, I deal with it locally. Very locally, in my back yard. My mount and telescope set it the darkest spot I have.
And I can move my location if I really wanted to.
I prefer to live and let live, rather than spend my time carrying a pasteboard sign around the block.
Lookit the STARS!