Author Topic: Interesting article  (Read 216 times)

Marvin Neboet

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Interesting article
« on: December 27, 2017, 11:05:23 PM »
http://www.laweekly....t-lights-wil...

Karl
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Bob Meade

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2017, 01:21:09 AM »
Interesting the difference between 2002 and 2012. Looks like less light spillage

dogswargersdurch

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2017, 09:17:27 PM »
Very interesting article! There is a link within that article to another one titled "Why Hollywood Will Never Look the Same Again on Film: LEDs Hit the Streets of LA & NY" here which had some more information.I really like the before and after pictures showing the city glow greatly diminished. What does it mean? Do observers in the outskirts of LA notice an improvement of sky darkness at all?

explacgarco

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2017, 03:08:14 AM »
These are important articles; thanks, Karl and Luke.I wonder how much weight the goal of reducing light pollution was given by those responsible for the changeover; probably little, as fiscal realities, in the form of a shrinking tax base and increasing energy costs, were likely the preeminent factors in making the decision, with environmental concerns making for a pleasant garnish  . We can likely thank the sad state of the economy, along with the coming loss of many coal-fired power plants and thus inevitable rate hikes, for the adoption of LED lighting much more than the efforts of dark sky advocates, sincere and diligent though they are.If the photos in those articles are not retouched, and hence truly indicative of significant sky darkening obained by using the new lights, this is a wonderful step in the right direction. Likely problems would include the loss of the ability to profitably use nebula filters in the environs of a city so equipped, and (because they are less expensive to operate and maintain) the tendency by government to use more fixtures than are necessary. Considering the possible overall benefits, these are relatively minor issues:  i believe that most amateurs would prefer a darker sky over the benefits of filters which enhance but a single class of objects, and the overuse of such lights can be addressed as needed in the political/environmental arena.It will be interesting to see where all of this goes.<em class="bbc">eta: Upon delving further, I see that one of the articles linked to a  press release in .pdf format from LA's mayor regarding the retrofit, and no mention of light pollution was made whatsoever; what <em class="bbc">was lauded, however, was the reduction in carbon emissions achieved by use of the more efficient lighting, and prominent mention of the Clinton Climate Initiative, as well as  C40, a "climate leadership group" of mega cities.I smell a rather large totalitarian rat in all this, sad to say; both CCI and C40 fairly reek of UN Agenda 21, Google link here. While dark skies are certainly desirable, they are not worth the possible loss of one's personal sovereignty and freedom; while there is no denying that LED street lights can be an improvement on the current situation, caution is advised when it comes to just who or what the astronomy community allies itself with. It would be a shame if, in the process of reducing light pollution while achieving "sustainability" and "smart growth" (A21 buzzwords), we were to be barred from pursuing our avocation in the darkest areas by decree;  Google "Wildlands Project" to investigate how this might occur.

Charles Marin

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2017, 03:36:35 AM »
Very interesting. If you dig through enough links, you come to this:

http://www.sustainab...le_044d273c-...

Which talks about a smart light grid and remote control of lights: "Armed with detailed analytics of its street lighting system, a municipality can in turn implement smarter energy saving strategies through more precise ‘on/off’ and dimming schedules, particularly during middle-of-the-night operation in low traffic areas."

Like mentioned above, economics will drive better lighting and hopefully reduced lighting when not need.

Jerry Gilbert

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 04:24:36 AM »
Quote
Very interesting. If you dig through enough links, you come to this:

http://www.sustainab...le_044d273c-...

Which talks about a smart light grid and remote control of lights: "Armed with detailed analytics of its street lighting system, a municipality can in turn implement smarter energy saving strategies through more precise ‘on/off’ and dimming schedules, particularly during middle-of-the-night operation in low traffic areas."

Like mentioned above, economics will drive better lighting and hopefully reduced lighting when not need.

Smart lighting systems, like described above, are certainly in the works. While economics is the most important factor, meeting the requirements of anti-LP laws is also a reason for them. For example the lighting design center at RPI advertises how it can use such designs to help local governments in several New England states meet the requirements of the state anti-LP laws.

Obviously, this implies that we still need to work for more anti-LP legislation that would drive the adoption of 'smart systems'.

Tim Massey

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2018, 02:44:59 PM »
Whenever I read one of these articles claiming, or expressing hope, that the latest innovations in street lighting are going to improve visibility, while at the same time reducing light pollution, I tend to almost double over with laughter. I've been in this hobby going on 60 years now. I've read the same sort of claims over and over throughout that span of time. Never, and I repeat never, has an improvement in sky conditions followed new and innovative approaches to outdoor lighting. Regardless of the propaganda surrounding the latest and greatest innovation in lighting, the end result is that light pollution increased and/or the visibility of celestial objects was further hindered. Short of returning to old fashioned tungsten street lighting and a lower U.S. population devoid of urban sprawl, absolutely nothing in the way of outdoor illumination can ever improve the lot of the amateur astronomer. BrooksObs

James Przystup

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2018, 06:51:57 PM »
I agree. Light pollution is now approaching unstoppable levels. :-(

dehimater

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2018, 01:08:24 AM »
Quote
Short of returning to old fashioned tungsten street lighting
Ummm.... low pressure sodium lighting is at least easy to filter out ... broad spectrum lighting like tungsten is impossible to filter.

Not to mention that tungsten lighting would cause a massive increase in power consumption and therefore contribute to anthropogenic climate change ... which IMHO is at least as much of a threat to astronomers by increasing cloud cover, an effect which isn't often reported but is very real, those of us who have been around for a few decades &amp; still have good memories find this trend very obvious.

<p class="citation">Quotea lower U.S. population devoid of urban sprawl[/quote]
Hmmm, that's a good idea. Bring on WW III

flasattecof

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2018, 03:03:29 AM »
BrooksObs Well I too have been involved into this lifestyle of observing the cosmos for a long long time, but also the LP issue (over 30 years) as in presentations to thousands, newspaper, magazine, radio intereviews and articles, plus founder of the Pennsylvania Outdoor Lighting Council (POLC). Yes, there has been and can be differences made beyond your comments. I'm proof right here in my own backyard.Our current home was completed in 1993, and our skies in my backyard shall we say was not great. Problem with a bowling alley (old) lights from across a large field. When eventual changes were made (thanks to my suggestions) to updated shoe-box lighting, my skies were noticeably darker. Also the bowling alley owner saved money (energy), and the actual building at night is much more appealing to the community.Most LP we see is from old poor or unshielded lighting and overused lighting (by far moslty commercial), that eventually will need to be replaced. The replacement with quality energy effiecient shileded lighting which is now in abundance of types and styles in the lighting market will make a diffrence. Even more types and styles of residential efficient shielded lighting is availible. A neighbor down the street has replaced their front door and garage lighting to one of these new designs.So the great possiblity of eventual change to mostly efficeint shielded lighting can make a huge difference.Oh, one thing I must also mention is that late night turn-off and the use of motion sensors is increasing. That also is a big help.KarlE.O.H.Chesmont Astronomical Society - www.chesmontastro.org Galaxy Log - http://www.youtube.c...r/GalaxyLog4565 Galaxy Log Blog - http://galaxylog.blogspot.com/HASB - http://www.haveastellarbirthday.comTelekit (Swayze optics) 22" F/4.5 Dob Homemade (Parks Optics) 12.5" F/4.8 Dob Vixen 5.1" f/5 reflectorTMB/APM 8" f/9 Refractor”The Beast”. One great DEEP SKY achro ES 6" f/6.5 achro. Good one Celestron Omni XLT 102 refractor. Celestron 10x60mm Binos

Alex Manuel

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 01:04:30 AM »
Quote
BrooksObs
Oh, one thing I must also mention is that late night turn-off and the use of motion sensors is increasing. That also is a big help.

I would like to hear more these two practices.  Are people implementing these in your area??

guisamcipen

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 04:27:13 AM »
Hi Vlad

Yes, and for the numerous outdoor lighting ordinances that has been initiated, many have late night cut-back during closing hours within the verbiage. Much of this comes from complaints by residential neighbors and the light trespass issue.

A number of commercial lighting that use to be on all night, now drop down so a low percentage of lighting is left on or turns them off all together. I've noticed this in even residential areas.

Much of this comes from being involved with this issue for a long time, and taking notice. On my drives coming home from dark observing sites over the years, I've taken notice that commercial lighting cut-back or late night turn-off has become more prevalent, even in areas without a known ordinance.

Anyway, you want to see change and how modern lighting replaces the old.

Below is a split image of the bowling alley lights then and now.

The image on the left was taken from one of our master bedroom windows in late 1993. The image on the right was taken a few years later using the same camera, film speed, and exposure time.

The old lighting was high output floods on telephone poles that surrounded the parking lot and building. Even at more than 600 feet away, I could read a book or magazine from my window without turning on a indoor light.

The new lighting is all shoebox full cut-off lighting at a substantial lower wattage output.

This became as I call a win-win ending whereas the owner pays lower lighting energy bills, a much better looking non-glare environment without the light trespass, and of course a darker night sky for me.   
Karl
E.O.H. Chesmont Astronomical Society - www.chesmontastro.org
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Tom Durham

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2018, 08:59:41 PM »
Karl, it is gratifying to hear that the bowling alley's offending lighting and that of a neighbor has been replaced with better and shielded fixture. However, let me just point out that neither was the result of better lighting ordinances, nor town studies of possible lighting improvements. Likewise, such is not indicative of what is abroad in the eastern states in general.The best lighting ordinances imaginable can reign and perhaps reduce the illumination to a degree in highly urbanized areas...but that only brings back mediocre skies, at best, and no more. In rural areas currently subject to urban sprawl the absolutely only result will be a marked deterioration in existing skies. There is simply no two ways about it.I have several long-time friends heavily involved in the dark sky movement. While I applaud their zeal, their efforts go for naught in the long run. Your initial post included an inspiring article and pair of great images that might seem to indicate dramatic strides in urban illumination. However, one has absolutely no way of knowing if the two images are truly comparable from the outset without detailed info regarding the cameras, exposure times, ISO employed, perhaps even the use of spectrum limiting filters. Today images can easily be made to indicated anything you want them to. As far as I am concerned, only the word of a serious observer who has personnally witnessed a marked reduction in the light pollution over a wide area of a given location can carry any weight with me.As long as urban sprawl continues (and it is still doing very well in many parts of northeast), skies will continues of brighten dramatically and dark sky sites become ever more remote. Nothing can stop this. Population takes more and more space and urbanites are afraid of the dark. Fifty plus years of serious observing has shown me so all too clearly.  BrooksObs

Shawn Bush

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2018, 10:53:14 AM »
Well....you are probably right BrooksObs.Very depressing points and it does not inspire one to take action. I think we as a species are prone to making all the wrong choices all of the time.Some will do the wrong thing deliberately to think they are bucking the so-called liberal establishment- a phantasm  if there ever was one.Couple that to indifference, lack of political will, general inertia and poor development choices and the future looks very bright indeed.

Mario Carpenter

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Re: Interesting article
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 03:51:05 AM »
Quote
I have several long-time friends heavily involved in the dark sky movement. While I applaud their zeal, their efforts go for naught in the long run.
This is why I eventually turned my energies towards more fruitful pursuits; combined with the shameful inability of amateurs to put up a unified front, it was becoming obvious that serious light pollution reduction in populated areas was simply not in the cards, short of thermonuclear war, extensive plague or other equally unpleasant population-reducing events.<p class="citation">QuoteAs long as urban sprawl continues (and it is still doing very well in many parts of northeast), skies will continues of brighten dramatically and dark sky sites become ever more remote. Nothing can stop this. Population takes more and more space and urbanites are afraid of the dark. Fifty plus years of serious observing has shown me so all too clearly.  [/quote]My experience as well, in all respects. I'm waiting now for a certain party to enter the thread and reiterate their prior statements that, in general, the sky hasn't gotten any brighter overall in the Northeast in recent years; apparently their must be some sort of alternate reality at work, as the sky here in New Jersey, and indeed within reasonable traveling distance in any direction save offshore into the Atlantic Ocean, has brightened steadily and measurably over the last 30 years in lockstep with the increasing population.I decided some time ago (right around the time that i realized that fighting light pollution in other than skirmishes was a losing proposition) that, with astronomy my main avocation, there was little sense in remaining in a heavily-populated area, and so intend to reside under truly dark skies when fully retired in the near future. While I believe that the light pollution reduction strategies outlined in the article referenced by the OP will indeed be of benefit, they are far from being a real solution; that will be achieved by removing oneself as far as possible from Hardy's "madding crowd" as is feasible.