Author Topic: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.  (Read 604 times)

laycacdownsell

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 01:40:20 AM »
Car dealerships put a LOT of tax $$ into city coffers so they always carry weight with city officials. Persistence and determination to get the lighting properly shielded and work to eliminate residential light trespass are you best avenues IMO. The dealership just wants to sell cars and the city just wants to collect sales tax. You are the lowest priority unless you insist and persist.

Good luck!

Devon Dank

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 04:23:48 AM »
Time to make some friends in city hall...

Cesar Rojas

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 10:36:57 AM »
Quote
Car dealerships put a LOT of tax $$ into city coffers so they always carry weight with city officials. Persistence and determination to get the lighting properly shielded and work to eliminate residential light trespass are you best avenues IMO. The dealership just wants to sell cars and the city just wants to collect sales tax. You are the lowest priority unless you insist and persist.

Good luck!

It's not like you are asking them for their first born child. The dealership should just install the shields already. What are they balking at? The cost? This is the thing that irritates me most about light polluters. A dismissive attitude and an unwillingness to lift a finger to do anything about their pollution. They believe it's our problem, not theirs.

frenafverbi

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 09:48:40 PM »
With the free reign businesses are about to have, it's going to get worse

Antonio Zuniga

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2018, 12:47:57 AM »
Quote
Car dealerships put a LOT of tax $$ into city coffers so they always carry weight with city officials. Persistence and determination to get the lighting properly shielded and work to eliminate residential light trespass are you best avenues IMO. The dealership just wants to sell cars and the city just wants to collect sales tax. You are the lowest priority unless you insist and persist.

The dealership can sell cars during the day and protect inventory with dogs and barbed wire fences at night. No need for excessive light. The citizens pay the sales tax, not the car dealers. The city/county/state/country is there to serve the citizens.

Have we forgotten all of that?

bescoldsearchroom

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2018, 02:54:06 AM »
"The dealership can sell cars during the day and protect inventory with dogs and barbed wire fences at night. No need for excessive light."

Not feasible for dealerships to put up ugly barbed wire fences with dogs around their inventory! Dealerships have their new cars out in front, enclosed by barbed wire would certainly not be inviting, and very well could be against local ordinances, and the manufacturer! I agree about the excessive light, however I mentioned earlier; that may be a requirement from the manufacturer, not the dealer. I do know a little about dealerships; my husband's family has had dealerships since 1919 here, and his dealership is still thriving, operated by his grandson.

noneanoncrag

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2018, 10:14:00 PM »
Quote
"The dealership can sell cars during the day and protect inventory with dogs and barbed wire fences at night. No need for excessive light."

Not feasible for dealerships to put up ugly barbed wire fences with dogs around their inventory! Dealerships have their new cars out in front, enclosed by barbed wire would certainly not be inviting, and very well could be against local ordinances, and the manufacturer! I agree about the excessive light, however I mentioned earlier; that may be a requirement from the manufacturer, not the dealer. I do know a little about dealerships; my husband's family has had dealerships since 1919 here, and his dealership is still thriving, operated by his grandson.

Agreed. If it were up to me, I'd require dealerships (well, everyone actually) to use full cutoff lighting exclusively, and cut the brightness to 1 fc or less with a CCT of 3000 or less within an hour of closing. I sure new LED lighting technology could accommodate these requirements without any significant extra cost for new installations. If security is an issue at their location, I could see bumping up the after hours brightness to 3 fc or so.

Akida Holland

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 08:51:13 AM »
My vehicle is as important to me as the car dealers' cars are to them. One difference is that I don't feel the need to illuminate it with floodlights all night long.

Christopher Buchanan

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2018, 08:12:09 PM »
Quote
My vehicle is as important to me as the car dealers' cars are to them. One difference is that I don't feel the need to illuminate it with floodlights all night long.

Actually, in most cases, those new vehicles on the dealer's lot belongs to a bank, rather than the dealer. Most businesses do illuminate their buildings and lots to advertise that they are there, and of course security. Your vehicle doesn't come close in cost as perhaps 100+ new vehicles sitting on a lot.

lehroldwebbdep

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2018, 08:35:19 PM »
Quote
Quote

Car dealerships put a LOT of tax $$ into city coffers so they always carry weight with city officials. Persistence and determination to get the lighting properly shielded and work to eliminate residential light trespass are you best avenues IMO. The dealership just wants to sell cars and the city just wants to collect sales tax. You are the lowest priority unless you insist and persist.

The dealership can sell cars during the day and protect inventory with dogs and barbed wire fences at night. No need for excessive light. The citizens pay the sales tax, not the car dealers. The city/county/state/country is there to serve the citizens.

Have we forgotten all of that?
Not exactly how it works.
A dealership lot is like the display window in a jewelry store. Even when they are closed they want to capture the eye of drive-bys with beautiful and dazzling new cars. Getting exactly the right light on them at night is a very important piece to maximize their location. It is the city's job to establish reasonable lighting ordinances that allow a dealer to create an attractive display without a bunch of unnecessary light trespass flooding into residential homes. In our area the display lighting must be shielded and turned off at 11pm each night. This is a reasonable solution although there is a significant light dome over the auto center area until the lights are out.

If a city becomes too punitive with businesses the dealership will simply move to another nearby city and take $1m annual sales tax revenue with them. That is why city govt is reluctant to enforce light trespass without a significant "push" from local citizens who are adversely affected. Suggesting "barbed wire fences" is the best way to get ignored by city council.

We have been through this battle in SoCal and it is difficult but possible to get some relief if the problem is serious enough and you have a responsive city council.

chirafepes

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 10:20:48 PM »
So this is all about money and advertising.

I have trouble imagining that no car dealerships will set up in a city, county or state if the laws against light pollution are too strict. That would leave too much money on the table. One of their number is going to defect.

Forms of advertising that I find annoying, but not as serious as LP: Those little plastic bags filled with ads and weighted down with pebbles. Litter. Hang tags on front door knobs. Trespassing.

Calvin Dolla

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2018, 12:10:25 AM »
It's not just car dealerships. Most retail business owners believe that being lit up brighter than the competition, even when not open, boosts sales. In major cities big building owners try to "out light" each other because they believe that up-scale renters are attracted to the brightest building.

As I've described in this Forum before:

 In a town near me a "concerned citizens group" claiming that more lighting was needed to "deter crime" turned out to be a group of store owners who just wanted the tax payers to light up their store fronts to attract customers.

Eric Guffey

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2018, 05:44:51 PM »
BINGO. An important piece of the puzzle fell into position for us today.

The city attorney replied that the lighting ordinance revision was adopted November 2001, way before the dealership's lighting company upgraded to the LED lights in September 2013. There are some "related documents" which the city attorney suggested filing a FOIA to recieve them. All in all, we've got an important piece of legal leverage in our favor. There may be a grandfather clause about the existing height of the light poles, we'll see how that plays out.

I get the idea that dealerships want to light up the sales lot, understand that I live in the middle of the city too, but this is crazy the hoops we have to jump through to get the dealership to listen to us and just shield us residents from the direct line of sight of those arc welding LED lights.

In the mean time, apartment neighbor 2 doors down, put a 150 watt incandesent bulb in her porch light, sigh.

Roger Dixon

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2018, 09:11:21 PM »
Quote
"The dealership can sell cars during the day and protect inventory with dogs and barbed wire fences at night. No need for excessive light."

Not feasible for dealerships to put up ugly barbed wire fences with dogs around their inventory! Dealerships have their new cars out in front, enclosed by barbed wire would certainly not be inviting, and very well could be against local ordinances, and the manufacturer! I agree about the excessive light, however I mentioned earlier; that may be a requirement from the manufacturer, not the dealer. I do know a little about dealerships; my husband's family has had dealerships since 1919 here, and his dealership is still thriving, operated by his grandson.

Besides, we all have seen what dogs do to car tires....

They chase them.
Now what were you thinking?

Back on track, well sort of... Behind us is a condominium complex. Somebodies juvenile delinquent got beat up outside his condo. Their fix?
Install 2 - 500 watt quartz area lights near the second story roofline, aimed straight out at our homes across the mote (drainage channel) behind our homes.
Well, my wife called city hall about them cutting down all the beautiful Norfolk Island pines and creating the eyesore of exposing their prison-esk complex. Nope, can't do anything about them cutting down their trees.
Then she asked about the bright lights. Turns out they can't have their lighting directly aimed at our properties. We won, She did!
The next day the area fixtures were aimed down at the ground as they should have been.

After the tenant got her first electric bill, the lights were turned off.

So maybe there is some statute about them invading your privacy with their obnoxious lighting? You should have the right to be comfortable in your home.

scenunhadef

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Re: New neighbor getting action on LED lights at car dealership.
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2018, 09:57:49 PM »
Quote
Quote

"The dealership can sell cars during the day and protect inventory with dogs and barbed wire fences at night. No need for excessive light."

Not feasible for dealerships to put up ugly barbed wire fences with dogs around their inventory! Dealerships have their new cars out in front, enclosed by barbed wire would certainly not be inviting, and very well could be against local ordinances, and the manufacturer! I agree about the excessive light, however I mentioned earlier; that may be a requirement from the manufacturer, not the dealer. I do know a little about dealerships; my husband's family has had dealerships since 1919 here, and his dealership is still thriving, operated by his grandson.

Besides, we all have seen what dogs do to car tires....

They chase them.
Now what were you thinking?

Back on track, well sort of... Behind us is a condominium complex. Somebodies juvenile delinquent got beat up outside his condo. Their fix?
Install 2 - 500 watt quartz area lights near the second story roofline, aimed straight out at our homes across the mote (drainage channel) behind our homes.
Well, my wife called city hall about them cutting down all the beautiful Norfolk Island pines and creating the eyesore of exposing their prison-esk complex. Nope, can't do anything about them cutting down their trees.
Then she asked about the bright lights. Turns out they can't have their lighting directly aimed at our properties. We won, She did!
The next day the area fixtures were aimed down at the ground as they should have been.

After the tenant got her first electric bill, the lights were turned off.

So maybe there is some statute about them invading your privacy with their obnoxious lighting? You should have the right to be comfortable in your home.
Most dogs do not chew tires or chase cars, certainly not cars that are PARKED. Maybe they do that on America's Stupidest Animals and Videos but not in real life.

Barbed wire can be an effective crime deterrent and laws forbidding it in commercial districts can be changed. The dealers can then choose to use it or not, depending on how poorly their excessive lights have prevented crime.

The only people who light up their cars with floodlights are car dealers and my neighbor. Our cars are worth as much to us as their cars are to them. One hundred cars in driveways, one hundred cars on the dealer lot. Only a few light polluters.

If the purpose of lights is for "advertising" then one can point out that few people will be interested in it after midnight, but it remains obnoxious to the surrounding community. What the manufacturers want should be unimportant since these are local issues.

(I'll mention that a car dealer tried to sell me a useless repair contract. I pointed out the flaws, left and never returned. Just saying.)

A poorly aimed or unshielded LED can be very damaging to someone else's peaceful enjoyment of property while not being too expensive to leave on all night. That's going to be the big problem from now on.