Author Topic: not like it used to be  (Read 723 times)

handthedemo

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2018, 04:18:43 PM »
"not like it used to be" is only evident to anyone old enough to know how it used to be. To the younger generation, it's always been this way, it's all they know. So why would they support any return to the way it used to be?

meenchinobun

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2018, 12:42:43 AM »
A key point. That's why it is so important to encourage people, especially young people, to get to a black or gray zone sky--to see the beauty of the night sky, to see it's possibilities and wonder. Continuous observing under a white zone sky produces a skewed vision of what astronomy can be, increases acceptance of diminished skies, and suppresses a vivid sense of the need for change. Yes, many people are stuck with it, make the best of it, etc., and more power to them, bless them. But.... It's rather like having an opinion of Rembrandt when you have only viewed his paintings through sandblasted glass. The wonder of dark skies is lost, and it is that wonder that drives science, poetry, enchantment, and much else of value. IMHO, of course. Dark skies.Jack

omunsopoo

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2018, 07:35:24 AM »
Quote
"not like it used to be" is only evident to anyone old enough to know how it used to be. To the younger generation, it's always been this way, it's all they know. So why would they support any return to the way it used to be?

As Jack points out, getting out to dark skies, something that many city dwellers do when camping and such, is important.  I think it is a good thing.

I have no with any goal in mind but simply believe it should be part of everyone's experience.

I do take issue with the idea that light pollution and electric lights are some sort of corporate scheme.

We all use electricity, we all use electric lights, we all benefit from electric lights at night and we are all partially responsible for light pollution.  Imagine cross the street in a busy intersection if the cars and buses had no lights...

Jon

unmoharib

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2018, 09:53:41 PM »
Quote
We are all partially responsible for light pollution.

Hear, hear! This is why holier-than-thou statements irk me so much.

<p class="citation">QuoteImagine cross the street in a busy intersection if the cars and buses had no lights.[/quote]

Done that; it's common enough in 3rd-world countries. Works OK, sort of. But fatality rates are much higher than here.

Robert Garcia

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2018, 03:50:44 AM »
not to get off the subject, but did you know that grave sites and some small cemeteries are disappearing every day in this country. dating back to the 1700's we are losing part of ourselves. even the forests. did you know the colonists had tree Bee's, to clear more than an acre for a cabin. by taking down over 300 year old trees, on virgin land. that had not had the sun hit the ground for centuries, starting in the morning and were able to see the stars by nightfall ! yes just a few hours. you wouldn't believe how they did it with just axes.

Nick Ellis

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2018, 12:13:57 PM »
Quote
Hear, hear! This is why holier-than-thou statements irk me so much.


OK...

I am partially responsible for the light pollution...

There's a question that each of us might ask ourselves.

Jon

rotenoter

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 11:11:29 PM »
Everyone cares about different things.  The most you can do is try to politely educate people about the things you care about and hope some of it rubs off.

I don't think it's an indicator of the degradation of humans, their spirits, or anything else.  It's just human nature that you can't care about everything, and as was mentioned, many people don't have much experience outside of cities to compare anything to.

Every single person does "stupid" and "unreasonable" stuff each day.  Multiple times.  Some of it will bother one person, while another (including the person doing it) won't think anything of it.

That's life as a human.

Stephen Artman

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2018, 01:52:58 AM »
Is it more light pollution by itself or more people needing lights? I'm old enough to remember when the population in the U.S. was 180 million. It's over 300 million now and all afraid of the dark (or maybe of eachother), hence more lights.

Doug Woods

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2018, 08:42:32 PM »
Quote
Everyone cares about different things.  The most you can do is try to politely educate people about the things you care about and hope some of it rubs off.

I don't think it's an indicator of the degradation of humans, their spirits, or anything else.  It's just human nature that you can't care about everything, and as was mentioned, many people don't have much experience outside of cities to compare anything to.

Every single person does "stupid" and "unreasonable" stuff each day.  Multiple times.  Some of it will bother one person, while another (including the person doing it) won't think anything of it.

That's life as a human.
Very well said.. 

Everyone does the best they can...

Jon

Richard Washington

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2018, 11:50:14 PM »
Something to keep in mind:Gas stations open at all hours.Grocery stores open at all hours.Many businesses needing to be open at all hours to deal with an electronically connected world.Street lights required to be on at all hours for those people who have to shop at 2am.Lawsuits because of accidents that happened in the dark.

Darkz Tousa

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2018, 01:05:09 AM »
Driving a vehicle down a public road and using traffic lights at intersections fall outside my definition (and I think, for example, the IDA's definition) of light pollution. (Provided the lights are properly aligned and shielded, of course.)Almost all interior lighting also falls outside my definition of light pollution. People may be interfering with their own natural cycles of sleep, but that's their business. I can imagine exceptions to this, where interior lighting should be held to the same standard as exterior lighting (e.g. no "light trespass").I'm even willing to give a pass on light reflected from ground surfaces, provided the light itself is behaving properly - not too bright for the need, and full-cutoff - provided the surface needs to be illuminated at all.To me these limits on what I call "light pollution", and a few more, like light intruding on others' property, define a balance between the benefits of lighting and the drawbacks. In one sense it is true that any artificial light at night that escapes into the atmosphere outside a closed space is light pollution. But I don't see the need for dark skies as an absolute need overriding all others, and I don't see calling people driving vehicles at night "light polluters" helpful to making the skies as dark as possible. We each emit CO2 when we exhale. Since the EPA now considers CO2 a pollutant, are all human beings now subject to derogatory terms? I've been down this road with ardent environmentalists before, and the logical conclusion is the extermination of the species - nothing else is sufficient.

revenade

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2018, 06:58:00 AM »
We could get along quite nicely with half of the street lights on streets where there are other forms of lighting. Car dealerships and plazas are the first sources of light that comes to mind.

Mike Partoza

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2018, 04:01:03 PM »
Quote
That's why it is so important to encourage people, especially young people, to get to a black or gray zone sky--to see the beauty of the night sky, to see it's possibilities and wonder. Continuous observing under a white zone sky produces a skewed vision of what astronomy can be, increases acceptance of diminished skies, and suppresses a vivid sense of the need for change....
The vast majority of urban/suburban teens and early twenty-somethings lack ANY ability to recognize anything in the night sky beyond superficial familiarity with the moon.  Bright as Jupiter is in the months when it's up in the early night sky, vanishingly few can recognize even that, or even recognize Venus as something other than simply a very bright star.  They do probably remember the Big Dipper from some trip to a rural location, but that's about it as far as constellations.The natural dark night sky (or even a moderately light-pollution compromised version thereof where the major constellations are still easily recognizable) is simply not part of their experience, except for infrequent brief outings to rural areas (and even then it's not something that truly engages their attention beyond "isn't that lovely to see so many stars").I really wish this wasn't so, and the several dozen to couple hundred who will occasionally turn out for public outreach events encouragingly tempt me toward optimism, but the hard reality is that we're not successfully engaging more than a small fraction of the public toward increased awareness of and interest in the true night sky.

Paul Rivera

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2018, 11:52:11 PM »
OTOH, there are a few perverse bonuses in being among the relatively few who know the night sky.  In the current (June '13) night sky, you can astound people by pointing out that the yellowish "star" high in the southern sky is the planet Saturn.  As long as you find a graceful way to segue conversation into pointing that out, and the person(s) you're talking to at least superficially appreciate the loveliness of the evening sky, you can usually elicit a pleasantly astonished reaction from them (no s**&amp; that's Saturn?)

Roberto Betancourt

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Re: not like it used to be
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2018, 01:31:28 AM »
Get some people to truely dark skies and you'd better bring a lot of toilet paper.....I have a nephew who likes his binoculars to view the moon and Jupiter and will take looks in the scope at home when I set it up....but if I ask him if he wants to go to the dark site.....not interested at all at "being out in the middle of nowhere"....go figure....