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General Astronomy => Light Pollution Topics => Topic started by: Robert Porter on December 24, 2017, 08:22:02 AM

Title: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Robert Porter on December 24, 2017, 08:22:02 AM
That is quite typical of this PR battle we're facing.  The police officer's remark near the end of the article sums it up.

http://www.thepostat...ssault-lighting (http://www.thepostathens.com/article/2017/12/student-senate-sexual-assault-lighting)
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: tradunjuwa on December 24, 2017, 09:10:46 AM
Sadly, that is the general opinion.   Doesn't "make" them safer, but they "feel" safer.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: acoplochop on December 29, 2017, 11:04:28 AM
It's interesting that this year Ohio University added an on-campus observatory for undergrads:

https://www.ohio.edu...ch/observatory/ (https://www.ohio.edu/cas/physastro/research/observatory/)

Seems a bit incongruous that campus night lights would be increased at the same time an observatory would be added. This is consistent with Spock's famous statement: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Our issue is that we are the few and our voices will never outweigh those of the many intent on making the night similar to day.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: niososerso on December 30, 2017, 01:32:34 AM
Oh geez, yeah! A spotlight on you! Ruins your night vision so you can't see criminals hiding in the shadows, but nicely puts a spotlight on you so they can see you and wait for the perfect opportunity. Sounds safe! (If you are totally braindead).
Some people seem to lack the ability to think tactically...

Martin.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: caenalfosen on December 31, 2017, 07:19:14 AM
Quote
It's interesting that this year Ohio University added an on-campus observatory for undergrads:

https://www.ohio.edu...ch/observatory/ (https://www.ohio.edu/cas/physastro/research/observatory/)

Seems a bit incongruous that campus night lights would be increased at the same time an observatory would be added. This is consistent with Spock's famous statement: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Our issue is that we are the few and our voices will never outweigh those of the many intent on making the night similar to day.

These two certainly are incompatible, to say the least!
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Carl Hanks on December 31, 2017, 08:32:30 PM
Quote
It's interesting that this year Ohio University added an on-campus observatory for undergrads:

https://www.ohio.edu...ch/observatory/ (https://www.ohio.edu/cas/physastro/research/observatory/)

Seems a bit incongruous that campus night lights would be increased at the same time an observatory would be added. This is consistent with Spock's famous statement: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Our issue is that we are the few and our voices will never outweigh those of the many intent on making the night similar to day.

Nice Sock reference! I use that one a lot because it's so relevant.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: ecidjapa on January 03, 2018, 06:57:32 PM
Quote
Oh geez, yeah! A spotlight on you! Ruins your night vision so you can't see criminals hiding in the shadows, but nicely puts a spotlight on you so they can see you and wait for the perfect opportunity. Sounds safe! (If you are totally braindead).
Some people seem to lack the ability to think tactically...

Martin.

It's incumbent on us to try and educate the uninitiated. It may be an impossible task, but you have to win over the majority to have any hope of dealing with this issue. To me, the main risk of increasing the sense of security without really increasing safety is that people will actually put themselves at greater risk by venturing into risky areas or situations they would have otherwise avoided. Kind of like telling someone you fixed their brakes, when you didn't. They are apt to drive faster and crash.

The irony is that if the crime rate actually goes up, it will further increase the pressure to add even more lights.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Eric Lara on January 08, 2018, 11:24:47 AM
Quote
It's interesting that this year Ohio University added an on-campus observatory for undergrads:

https://www.ohio.edu...ch/observatory/ (https://www.ohio.edu/cas/physastro/research/observatory/)

Seems a bit incongruous that campus night lights would be increased at the same time an observatory would be added. This is consistent with Spock's famous statement: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Our issue is that we are the few and our voices will never outweigh those of the many intent on making the night similar to day.

History-changing revolutions have always begun with a minority. Maybe the Astronomy and Anti-Light Revolution is around the corner. We just need to get together and stash away caches of wire snips and astronomy pamphlets to pass out...
Our battle-cry will be, "No light! And the stars forever!"
Sounds like a plan?

Martin.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: highdanmyne on January 08, 2018, 01:09:36 PM
Quote
Quote

History-changing revolutions have always begun with a minority. Maybe the Astronomy and Anti-Light Revolution is around the corner. We just need to get together and stash away caches of wire snips and astronomy pamphlets to pass out...
Our battle-cry will be, "No light! And the stars forever!"
Sounds like a plan?

Martin.
I think we need education, not revolution. The City of Fort Collins, where I live, has a city staff member who has been educated in appropriate night lighting - efficient, diffuse downward light at an intensity high enough to illuminate but not high enough to cause glare. She is educating the city and helping them make decisions related to street lights and what she calls "light trespass" - night lighting that extends beyond the boundary of the area to be illuminated. I've contacted the city in the past to modify a street light at the corner where I live. I found them to be quite responsive in balancing the needs of the city in relation to street intersection illumination and the fact that I'd like my backyard to be dark. She also gives lectures in effective and efficient night lighting to groups and schools who request such instruction.

I think more of this type of education is appropriate. Perhaps it is us and our colleagues who should take a more active role in providing such education to those who will listen.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: firorectve on January 08, 2018, 01:48:18 PM
I was just joking, PFitzHorn. I am sure that education is the best way to go. We astronomers are peaceful folk.
I am happy to see that some legal headway is being made in your town to address the LP issue, and that a city staff member cares about your (and other people's) health and astronomy needs. I hope those you approach are open to being educated on these issues and take to heart your message, giving you no grief in the process.

Best wishes and clear, dark skies,

Martin.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: kerolero on January 10, 2018, 07:52:00 AM
I hear you Martin!
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: James Holt on January 11, 2018, 02:47:10 AM
At least for now, that university is having to -prioritize- where to put the new lights and is not trying to light up every square inch of ground.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Tye Paez on January 11, 2018, 04:51:01 AM
Quote
Quote

Quote

History-changing revolutions have always begun with a minority. Maybe the Astronomy and Anti-Light Revolution is around the corner. We just need to get together and stash away caches of wire snips and astronomy pamphlets to pass out...
Our battle-cry will be, "No light! And the stars forever!"
Sounds like a plan?

Martin.
I think we need education, not revolution. The City of Fort Collins, where I live, has a city staff member who has been educated in appropriate night lighting - efficient, diffuse downward light at an intensity high enough to illuminate but not high enough to cause glare. She is educating the city and helping them make decisions related to street lights and what she calls "light trespass" - night lighting that extends beyond the boundary of the area to be illuminated. I've contacted the city in the past to modify a street light at the corner where I live. I found them to be quite responsive in balancing the needs of the city in relation to street intersection illumination and the fact that I'd like my backyard to be dark. She also gives lectures in effective and efficient night lighting to groups and schools who request such instruction.

I think more of this type of education is appropriate. Perhaps it is us and our colleagues who should take a more active role in providing such education to those who will listen.
Can you PM me with this staff members name, please?
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: liomocharla on January 11, 2018, 12:55:04 PM
Quote
At least for now, that university is having to -prioritize- where to put the new lights and is not trying to light up every square inch of ground.

The university could mitigate the inevitable light pollution by using well shielded fixtures on short poles instead of a few on tall poles that spray light everywhere. One sees the latter in residential lighting. Homeowners put a floodlight over the garage that is aimed down the driveway, rather than a shielded lamp next to the street, because the fixture is cheaper and they don't have to run a power cable underground.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: laucongsnagal on January 11, 2018, 04:30:29 PM
Just for what it's worth, Ohio University's new observatory is some distance away from the areas of campus where students would typically be - it's in a quiet research campus and located sort of on a hilltop, shielded by some trees etc from the main light glow of campus about a mile and a half away. Not dark skies by a long shot, but still nice to have. My first ever look through a telescope was through that same refractor when it was up on top of the old engineering building back in about 1980. I hope to get to see, and observe from, the new observatory sometime when I'm back in town!
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: nijambaci on January 12, 2018, 08:51:55 AM
Quote
Quote

At least for now, that university is having to -prioritize- where to put the new lights and is not trying to light up every square inch of ground.

The university could mitigate the inevitable light pollution by using well shielded fixtures on short poles instead of a few on tall poles that spray light everywhere. One sees the latter in residential lighting. Homeowners put a floodlight over the garage that is aimed down the driveway,

.....
I have a neighbor with a light something like that, aimed outward instead of downward, but that particular light is rarely on.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: swadadanun on January 13, 2018, 07:14:52 AM
I have to laugh, because this is *exactly* what I said a few months back in another LP thread...

We're a minority, and if we think dark skies will come back, we're being fools. Ain't gonna happen. Light pollution will ONLY get worse, and will spread to every corner of the planet as our species continues to grow in population in an out of control manner. The few dark skies that we still have, will be gone within 25 years.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: James Runninger on January 13, 2018, 03:12:19 PM
Quote
Quote

Quote

History-changing revolutions have always begun with a minority. Maybe the Astronomy and Anti-Light Revolution is around the corner. We just need to get together and stash away caches of wire snips and astronomy pamphlets to pass out...
Our battle-cry will be, "No light! And the stars forever!"
Sounds like a plan?

Martin.
I think we need education, not revolution. The City of Fort Collins, where I live, has a city staff member who has been educated in appropriate night lighting - efficient, diffuse downward light at an intensity high enough to illuminate but not high enough to cause glare. She is educating the city and helping them make decisions related to street lights and what she calls "light trespass" - night lighting that extends beyond the boundary of the area to be illuminated. I've contacted the city in the past to modify a street light at the corner where I live. I found them to be quite responsive in balancing the needs of the city in relation to street intersection illumination and the fact that I'd like my backyard to be dark. She also gives lectures in effective and efficient night lighting to groups and schools who request such instruction.

I think more of this type of education is appropriate. Perhaps it is us and our colleagues who should take a more active role in providing such education to those who will listen.
Those 'educated' staff are few and far between. Most councils set particular rules on lighting, and those rules make no allowance for seeing the stars etc. Their primary concern is lighting of streets for cars, and pavements for pedestrians, and security. Of course, businesses are also allowed to advertise with lighting as much as they like.

LED lighting has made lighting more efficient for the masses, but that just means it encourages users to keep those lights on for longer. What cost X amount of dollars for 5 hours lighting in the past is now 1/2x for 10 hours! Since 99.9999999% of the population only care about security, and no one else other than their greedy selves, they simply keep the lights on for longer and enjoy the cheaper electrical cost of lighting that LEDs provide. This modus operandi has spread like wildfire. Lights with motion sensors? Rare as hell from my experience. They cost too much you see, and the general attitude from the mass population is that of "I don't care about anyone else".

It has been shown via several anthropologic studies that as population centres grow, members of said population lose touch with other members, even neighbours, and there is less care and empathy for others. Believe it or not, the ideal maximum size for a population centre is around 50 members. Anything bigger tends to break down and lose the positive benefits of population grouping. We are seeing this behaviour directly in regards to lighting issues.

Since we are a minority, councils will never pander to our needs. In society, majority always rules, and minorities will always be treated in an inferior manner. That is how human society has always worked, and will always work.

I'm certainly not trying to sound negative, but for anyone pushing the education aspect of LP, you are fooling yourselves. LP has worsened in the 20th century, and has particularly worsened in the past 10 years, and is continuing to worsen at an exponential rate.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: tiogeroligh on January 15, 2018, 08:28:51 PM
Quote
Quote

History-changing revolutions have always begun with a minority. Maybe the Astronomy and Anti-Light Revolution is around the corner. We just need to get together and stash away caches of wire snips and astronomy pamphlets to pass out...
Our battle-cry will be, "No light! And the stars forever!"
Sounds like a plan?

Martin.
I think we need education, not revolution. The City of Fort Collins, where I live, has a city staff member who has been educated in appropriate night lighting - efficient, diffuse downward light at an intensity high enough to illuminate but not high enough to cause glare. She is educating the city and helping them make decisions related to street lights and what she calls "light trespass" - night lighting that extends beyond the boundary of the area to be illuminated. I've contacted the city in the past to modify a street light at the corner where I live. I found them to be quite responsive in balancing the needs of the city in relation to street intersection illumination and the fact that I'd like my backyard to be dark. She also gives lectures in effective and efficient night lighting to groups and schools who request such instruction.

I think more of this type of education is appropriate. Perhaps it is us and our colleagues who should take a more active role in providing such education to those who will listen.[/quote]
Those 'educated' staff are few and far between. Most councils set particular rules on lighting, and those rules make no allowance for seeing the stars etc. Their primary concern is lighting of streets for cars, and pavements for pedestrians, and security. Of course, businesses are also allowed to advertise with lighting as much as they like.

LED lighting has made lighting more efficient for the masses, but that just means it encourages users to keep those lights on for longer. What cost X amount of dollars for 5 hours lighting in the past is now 1/2x for 10 hours! Since 99.9999999% of the population only care about security, and no one else other than their greedy selves, they simply keep the lights on for longer and enjoy the cheaper electrical cost of lighting that LEDs provide. This modus operandi has spread like wildfire. Lights with motion sensors? Rare as hell from my experience. They cost too much you see, and the general attitude from the mass population is that of "I don't care about anyone else".

It has been shown via several anthropologic studies that as population centres grow, members of said population lose touch with other members, even neighbours, and there is less care and empathy for others. Believe it or not, the ideal maximum size for a population centre is around 50 members. Anything bigger tends to break down and lose the positive benefits of population grouping. We are seeing this behaviour directly in regards to lighting issues.

Since we are a minority, councils will never pander to our needs. In society, majority always rules, and minorities will always be treated in an inferior manner. That is how human society has always worked, and will always work.

I'm certainly not trying to sound negative, but for anyone pushing the education aspect of LP, you are fooling yourselves. LP has worsened in the 20th century, and has particularly worsened in the past 10 years, and is continuing to worsen at an exponential rate.[/quote]
So what do you suggest? Doing nothing? Armed conflict? Not that long ago, the majority of people in my country did not care about AIDS or want to allow gay marriage, but here we are. I think the majority of people could be convinced that they would be better off with good lighting regulations instead of the chaos we have now. The health, environmental, and aesthetic benefits of good lighting are numerous and real.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: pernogori on January 18, 2018, 12:32:34 AM
Quote
Quote

History-changing revolutions have always begun with a minority. Maybe the Astronomy and Anti-Light Revolution is around the corner. We just need to get together and stash away caches of wire snips and astronomy pamphlets to pass out...
Our battle-cry will be, "No light! And the stars forever!"
Sounds like a plan?

Martin.
I think we need education, not revolution. The City of Fort Collins, where I live, has a city staff member who has been educated in appropriate night lighting - efficient, diffuse downward light at an intensity high enough to illuminate but not high enough to cause glare. She is educating the city and helping them make decisions related to street lights and what she calls "light trespass" - night lighting that extends beyond the boundary of the area to be illuminated. I've contacted the city in the past to modify a street light at the corner where I live. I found them to be quite responsive in balancing the needs of the city in relation to street intersection illumination and the fact that I'd like my backyard to be dark. She also gives lectures in effective and efficient night lighting to groups and schools who request such instruction.

I think more of this type of education is appropriate. Perhaps it is us and our colleagues who should take a more active role in providing such education to those who will listen.[/quote]
Those 'educated' staff are few and far between. Most councils set particular rules on lighting, and those rules make no allowance for seeing the stars etc. Their primary concern is lighting of streets for cars, and pavements for pedestrians, and security. Of course, businesses are also allowed to advertise with lighting as much as they like.

LED lighting has made lighting more efficient for the masses, but that just means it encourages users to keep those lights on for longer. What cost X amount of dollars for 5 hours lighting in the past is now 1/2x for 10 hours! Since 99.9999999% of the population only care about security, and no one else other than their greedy selves, they simply keep the lights on for longer and enjoy the cheaper electrical cost of lighting that LEDs provide. This modus operandi has spread like wildfire. Lights with motion sensors? Rare as hell from my experience. They cost too much you see, and the general attitude from the mass population is that of "I don't care about anyone else".

It has been shown via several anthropologic studies that as population centres grow, members of said population lose touch with other members, even neighbours, and there is less care and empathy for others. Believe it or not, the ideal maximum size for a population centre is around 50 members. Anything bigger tends to break down and lose the positive benefits of population grouping. We are seeing this behaviour directly in regards to lighting issues.

Since we are a minority, councils will never pander to our needs. In society, majority always rules, and minorities will always be treated in an inferior manner. That is how human society has always worked, and will always work.

I'm certainly not trying to sound negative, but for anyone pushing the education aspect of LP, you are fooling yourselves. LP has worsened in the 20th century, and has particularly worsened in the past 10 years, and is continuing to worsen at an exponential rate.[/quote]
So what do you suggest? Doing nothing? Armed conflict? Not that long ago, the majority of people in my country did not care about AIDS or want to allow gay marriage, but here we are. I think the majority of people could be convinced that they would be better off with good lighting regulations instead of the chaos we have now. The health, environmental, and aesthetic benefits of good lighting are numerous and real.[/quote]
We can jump up and done, protest, educate, it won't change anything. As to HIV (AIDS is technically an incorrect term), or same **** marriage, both probably have higher percentages of people in society than amateur astronomers. Certainly the latter. Both are still minorities. HIV patients are still treated with disdain, suspicion and hatred and regularly discriminated against.

Just based on people I've spoken too, not a single one of them care about lighting, light pollution, the skies and astronomy or amateur astronomers. Not. A. Single. One. Zero. Blat. Null.

I'm not saying LP isn't an issue, it most certainly is. What I am saying is that society doesn't care about it. A very minuscule portion of a percent cares about it, and we are not going to sway the masses, no matter what we argue, how convincing our arguments are, or how long we argue for. By all means, protest, educate, jump up and down and turn Blue in the face. Give it your best shot. I wish you the best. Myself, I know when a battle is lost and when it's futile to fight said battle and detrimental to your physical and mental wellbeing. I'll accept defeat.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: poithegepur on January 18, 2018, 03:44:37 AM
We have to continue to educate. There was a tragic accident in Shakespeare Ontario some years ago. A car drove into the side of a transport truck backing into a business to deliver goods.  It was at night and no adverse weather conditions. An inquiry into the accident made a recommendation to put high visibility reflective tape on the sides of all transport trucks. This was accepted and put into place in I think record time. Unfortunately only two years later a car drove into the side of a transport truck (with the reflective strips) in the same spot losing another life. This time no inquiry, and condolences all round, and " I don't know what we can do to make it safer" (from the officials). I have driven that stretch of highway through there. I found it odd that there was no mention of I believe two poorly placed streetlights that from the glare made anything near them invisible. Mater of fact another light appeared increasing the glare. It seemed like light was not something that could be blamed. Light and more light is better. It couldn't possibly be a problem now could it.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Ralph Gleason on January 18, 2018, 04:21:20 AM
Quote
We have to continue to educate. There was a tragic accident in Shakespeare Ontario some years ago. A car drove into the side of a transport truck backing into a business to deliver goods.  It was at night and no adverse weather conditions. An inquiry into the accident made a recommendation to put high visibility reflective tape on the sides of all transport trucks. This was accepted and put into place in I think record time. Unfortunately only two years later a car drove into the side of a transport truck (with the reflective strips) in the same spot losing another life. This time no inquiry, and condolences all round, and " I don't know what we can do to make it safer" (from the officials). I have driven that stretch of highway through there. I found it odd that there was no mention of I believe two poorly placed streetlights that from the glare made anything near them invisible. Mater of fact another light appeared increasing the glare. It seemed like light was not something that could be blamed. Light and more light is better. It couldn't possibly be a problem now could it.

I would say poor driving skills. If drivers are similar the world over, as they are in Australia, 95% are incompetent imho and shouldn't be on the roads. Driver attention skills are poor, driver car control is poor. Most drivers under 25 are too busy playing with mobile phones whilst driving. Too many drivers are driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs (or both!). I base this statement on 30 years of driving and watching too many idiots on the roads, who threaten my life. Speeding in Australia is rampant, and I'm pretty sure it's no different in other countries. I'm pretty sure speed was an issue in both accidents that you've mentioned too.

If you are driving in poor weather conditions, you slow down. If you are driving in an unfamiliar area, you slow down. Usually by 10% for each type of issue. Extreme weather conditions like pea soup fog, torrential rain, or ice/black ice on the road may require higher speed drops, or complete stoppage in a safe location to the side of the road, with emergency blinkers on.

I highly doubt lighting was a factor, let alone a major factor, in either accident. It's a pity police traffic accident fatality reports aren't made public (at least, in Australia).
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Alex Manuel on January 18, 2018, 06:08:27 AM
Quote
Quote

We have to continue to educate. There was a tragic accident in Shakespeare Ontario some years ago. A car drove into the side of a transport truck backing into a business to deliver goods.  It was at night and no adverse weather conditions. An inquiry into the accident made a recommendation to put high visibility reflective tape on the sides of all transport trucks. This was accepted and put into place in I think record time. Unfortunately only two years later a car drove into the side of a transport truck (with the reflective strips) in the same spot losing another life. This time no inquiry, and condolences all round, and " I don't know what we can do to make it safer" (from the officials). I have driven that stretch of highway through there. I found it odd that there was no mention of I believe two poorly placed streetlights that from the glare made anything near them invisible. Mater of fact another light appeared increasing the glare. It seemed like light was not something that could be blamed. Light and more light is better. It couldn't possibly be a problem now could it.

I would say poor driving skills. If drivers are similar the world over, as they are in Australia, 95% are incompetent imho and shouldn't be on the roads. Driver attention skills are poor, driver car control is poor. Most drivers under 25 are too busy playing with mobile phones whilst driving. Too many drivers are driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs (or both!). I base this statement on 30 years of driving and watching too many idiots on the roads, who threaten my life. Speeding in Australia is rampant, and I'm pretty sure it's no different in other countries. I'm pretty sure speed was an issue in both accidents that you've mentioned too.

If you are driving in poor weather conditions, you slow down. If you are driving in an unfamiliar area, you slow down. Usually by 10% for each type of issue. Extreme weather conditions like pea soup fog, torrential rain, or ice/black ice on the road may require higher speed drops, or complete stoppage in a safe location to the side of the road, with emergency blinkers on.

I highly doubt lighting was a factor, let alone a major factor, in either accident. It's a pity police traffic accident fatality reports aren't made public (at least, in Australia).
To give a little more info. The posted speed was 50 kph. The cars were going probably in the 55 to 60 kph range. Familiarity may have played a roll in both accidents, as both were from the local area. The original inquiry determined that the truck was not visible, since it was sideways across the road. Hence the high visibility tape to add to the side. Weather was calm, no rain, no fog, clear visibility. I believe this happened in the 1987. Distraction may have played a roll. After the accident in that area I paid a lot more attention to the conditions in that area which do have some glare at night. I just found it odd in retrospect that that did not seem to be mentioned at the inquiry.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Michael Burney on January 21, 2018, 06:25:48 AM
^^ See? Not only is LP bad for your night vision and health, it will potentially kill you.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Pablo Abreu on January 23, 2018, 02:43:45 AM
Just because society doesn't care about something now does not mean they never will. There are lots of things that are considered important today that were not on anyone's radar 20 years ago. If you think trying to convince people to care about light pollution is a waste of time, I guess that's your prerogative. But maybe you should at least think about what you are trying to accomplish by discouraging the rest of us from doing something about it.

I don't mean to single you out - I see lots of negative comments from different people on this board about how efforts to limit light pollution are a waste of time. You are not even close to being one of the worst ones. But I think maybe taking time to tell those of us who are making the effort we are wasting our time is an even bigger waste of time.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: libulbinis on January 23, 2018, 08:40:19 AM
You have totally misunderstood me. My remark was posted in all seriousness. I hate LP as much as anyone else here, and applaud your efforts to remove this health, safety, and science-inhibiting hazard from our society. Excessive light in the wrong place can kill you, if you read Bogg's post above mine. Perhaps next time you ought to avoid taking offense at someone on your side of the fence. Yes, I was intentionally singled out, since I had a post written against me for no reason at all, simply to get this thread off track.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: consmagestma on January 31, 2018, 01:15:13 AM
Quote
Quote

We have to continue to educate. There was a tragic accident in Shakespeare Ontario some years ago. A car drove into the side of a transport truck backing into a business to deliver goods.  It was at night and no adverse weather conditions. An inquiry into the accident made a recommendation to put high visibility reflective tape on the sides of all transport trucks. This was accepted and put into place in I think record time. Unfortunately only two years later a car drove into the side of a transport truck (with the reflective strips) in the same spot losing another life. This time no inquiry, and condolences all round, and " I don't know what we can do to make it safer" (from the officials). I have driven that stretch of highway through there. I found it odd that there was no mention of I believe two poorly placed streetlights that from the glare made anything near them invisible. Mater of fact another light appeared increasing the glare. It seemed like light was not something that could be blamed. Light and more light is better. It couldn't possibly be a problem now could it.

I would say poor driving skills. If drivers are similar the world over, as they are in Australia, 95% are incompetent imho and shouldn't be on the roads. Driver attention skills are poor, driver car control is poor. Most drivers under 25 are too busy playing with mobile phones whilst driving. Too many drivers are driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs (or both!). I base this statement on 30 years of driving and watching too many idiots on the roads, who threaten my life. Speeding in Australia is rampant, and I'm pretty sure it's no different in other countries. I'm pretty sure speed was an issue in both accidents that you've mentioned too.

If you are driving in poor weather conditions, you slow down. If you are driving in an unfamiliar area, you slow down. Usually by 10% for each type of issue. Extreme weather conditions like pea soup fog, torrential rain, or ice/black ice on the road may require higher speed drops, or complete stoppage in a safe location to the side of the road, with emergency blinkers on.

I highly doubt lighting was a factor, let alone a major factor, in either accident. It's a pity police traffic accident fatality reports aren't made public (at least, in Australia).
To give a little more info. The posted speed was 50 kph. The cars were going probably in the 55 to 60 kph range. Familiarity may have played a roll in both accidents, as both were from the local area. The original inquiry determined that the truck was not visible, since it was sideways across the road. Hence the high visibility tape to add to the side. Weather was calm, no rain, no fog, clear visibility. I believe this happened in the 1987. Distraction may have played a roll. After the accident in that area I paid a lot more attention to the conditions in that area which do have some glare at night. I just found it odd in retrospect that that did not seem to be mentioned at the inquiry.[/quote]

how do you miss a truck sideways on the road? Seriously? That just says 'incompetent driver' too me.

Speed limit was 50kph you say, but they were doing between 55 and 60, so well over the speed limit. Sorry, but I have no pity for them. Idiot drivers that die on the roads do not get pity from me.

Sometimes, I wish I was a cop in an undercover car, just driving around on our roads - so many people would lose their licences! For example, one driver that I was behind, failed to indicate 3 times (that's 2 points loss on licence for each instance, for a total of 6 points), ran a Red light (4 points) and was speeding (around 10 kph over the limit by my estimates) that's 2 points. That's 12 points, in less than a km of road. And, that's nothing unusual on our roads.

I see people tail gating me by a car's length (yes, a car's length, 6m!) on road's where the legal speed limit is 100 kph. That's just plain idiocy. These guys should never be allowed on the road EVER again in my opinion. Instant licence ban.

Last week I drove into town to pick up my my 2nd hand dob that I'd bought off Fleabay. On the way home, I had a young guy in a ute, on his P plates (provisional driver), sitting less than a car's length behind me (speed limit was 90 kph and I was doing the speed limit). He came up from behind me at a rate of knots, probably doing between 100 and 110 (in a 90 zone!), sat on my rear end, and when the first opportunity arose, changed lanes dangerously, and then cut right in front of me, with less than half a car's length. Didn't indicate either. Right there, that's 3 points for dangerous driver (2 instances, initial lane change, and then the dangerous cut in front of me BS, for a total of six points), speeding (between 2 and 4 points), tail gating (2 points), failing to indicate (2x, 4 points total). On his P plates, where he has 6 points in total on his licence...this sort of despicable behaviour on the roads is rampant.

The more of these types of idiots we get off the road permanently, the better imho.

But, anyway, I digress - I bet certain parts of my anatomy that both drivers in your example were driving like idiots and not paying attention to the roads, an were sub standard drivers who probably should never have been allowed to have a licence. Ever seen Canada's worst driver (amazing show, love it) - how did all of those drivers get a licence?

<p class="citation">earlyriser, on 11 Dec 2017 - 8:43 PM, said:<a href="https://www.cloudynights.com/index.php?app=forums&amp;module=forums&amp;section=findpost&amp;pid=8266297" rel="citation">(https://www.cloudynights.com//public/style_images/master/snapback.png)[/url]<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote built" data-author="earlyriser" data-cid="8266297" data-time="1513017821">

Just because society doesn't care about something now does not mean they never will. There are lots of things that are considered important today that were not on anyone's radar 20 years ago. If you think trying to convince people to care about light pollution is a waste of time, I guess that's your prerogative. But maybe you should at least think about what you are trying to accomplish by discouraging the rest of us from doing something about it.

I don't mean to single you out - I see lots of negative comments from different people on this board about how efforts to limit light pollution are a waste of time. You are not even close to being one of the worst ones. But I think maybe taking time to tell those of us who are making the effort we are wasting our time is an even bigger waste of time.

[/quote]
Not sure if this was directed at me or not. Your ordinary average person doesn't care about the night sky. Ask anyone who's done outreach - kids run rampant, damage your gear, parents don't care about their kids bad behaviour, etc. You have to start young, but parental influence is a huge issue. If the parents aren't pro Astronomy, that child's interest will never grow. Since this sort of situation is endemic in modern society, I hold little hope for LP being solved. I see the number of kids going into the sciences dwindling. Some interesting reading:

http://www.smh.com.a...006-10qvq2.html (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/20year-decline-in-year-12-science-and-maths-participation-study-finds-20141006-10qvq2.html)

http://www.smh.com.a...805-gisnr5.html (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/four-myths-about-why-your-kids-arent-studying-science-for-the-hsc-20150805-gisnr5.html)

By all means push for LP solutions. I personally don't have the mental or physical energy to do so anymore. I've had enough fights in my life that I couldn't win, to recognise that LP is another fight that's impossible to win.

Dave
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: belmadeasus on January 31, 2018, 03:16:06 AM
Folks, we're straying off course a wee bit here, so let's make sure we stay on topic.

And as always, react to contrary opinions cordially, remembering that it is far too easy in a text based discussion to read things more negatively than the writer intended, given the absence of tonal and visual cues. There is no criticism in my words as everything here is good so far; I just don't want us to lose sight of the fact that we all want the same thing, but may have different but still legitimate approaches to the problem.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Ryan Miller on January 31, 2018, 06:58:05 AM
Quote
Folks, we're straying off course a wee bit here, so let's make sure we stay on topic.

And as always, react to contrary opinions cordially, remembering that it is far too easy in a text based discussion to read things more negatively than the writer intended, given the absence of tonal and visual cues. There is no criticism in my words as everything here is good so far; I just don't want us to lose sight of the fact that we all want the same thing, but may have different but still legitimate approaches to the problem.

I want LP to be effectively worked upon, I really do. For those that have the energy to fight the fight, good on them. I just no longer have the energy or motivation to do so. That doesn't mean that I won't support those fighting the good fight.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: chlorleifilwhirl on January 31, 2018, 07:30:37 AM
Quote
I want LP to be effectively worked upon, I really do. For those that have the energy to fight the fight, good on them. I just no longer have the energy or motivation to do so. That doesn't mean that I won't support those fighting the good fight.

I totally get that. Each of us gets to a point on some issue or another where we don't have the energy any more for the fight, no matter how vigorously we root for those still battling in the ring.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Joel Cahill on January 31, 2018, 08:00:13 AM
Quote
Quote

I want LP to be effectively worked upon, I really do. For those that have the energy to fight the fight, good on them. I just no longer have the energy or motivation to do so. That doesn't mean that I won't support those fighting the good fight.

I totally get that. Each of us gets to a point on some issue or another where we don't have the energy any more for the fight, no matter how vigorously we root for those still battling in the ring.
exactly.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: statfuncteeci on January 31, 2018, 09:04:34 AM
Quote
Quote

Quote

I want LP to be effectively worked upon, I really do. For those that have the energy to fight the fight, good on them. I just no longer have the energy or motivation to do so. That doesn't mean that I won't support those fighting the good fight.

I totally get that. Each of us gets to a point on some issue or another where we don't have the energy any more for the fight, no matter how vigorously we root for those still battling in the ring.
exactly.
I've given up with my efforts with Shakopee, MN.  "Rooting" is not enough.

As I earlier reported in the LP forum, the local newspaper was going to interview me. That didn't happen. (I did ask forum members to just post a quick note to the local newspaper facebook to keep up the momentum. Unfortunately not one person did....not a one). Other more interesting subjects are now getting media attention.

The local power utility engineer promised to shield the new non compliant 4000K streetlight in my yard, but they did not do it. The city is now replacing all street lights with hideous non-IDA lights and fixtures.

I'm not whining that I'm a 'victim' here... I just came to the conclusion that we've lost the skies forever.

The powers that be don't listen to one person no matter how truthful the subject matter is.

I tried, but I'm done. We lost.

--Jay
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: swadadanun on January 31, 2018, 10:58:25 AM
1) The only thing that allows evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.
2) Every revolution has begun with a small number of people.
3) As hopeless as something may seem, remember: most things are not as they seem.
4) Never surrender.
5) Always carry wire snips. ()

Hope that helps and offers some encouragement, Jay. Remember, the battle is not over until you surrender or run from the field.

Best wishes on your continued fight,
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Dave Fair on February 02, 2018, 05:55:16 PM
Actually, I think light pollution is one of the few issues that has not been made partisan (yet). This gives me hope that some kind of action could be taken.

If you define success as the total elimination of light pollution, of course that is not going to happen. But that doesn't mean nothing can be done. Just limiting the spread of light pollution, establishing more dark sky parks, etc. is entirely possible.

Anyway, to those who have burned themselves out on this issue... Just because you can't do everything, doesn't mean you should do nothing. Me, I just support the IDA and talk about the bad effects of light pollution when the opportunity arises. I don't expect to be the Martin Luther King of light pollution, but just another snowflake in an avalanche.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: artufanchess on February 02, 2018, 06:44:53 PM
Quote
1) The only thing that allows evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.
2) Every revolution has begun with a small number of people.
3) As hopeless as something may seem, remember: most things are not as they seem.
4) Never surrender.
5) Always carry wire snips. ()

Hope that helps and offers some encouragement, Jay. Remember, the battle is not over until you surrender or run from the field.

Best wishes on your continued fight,

I've surrendered and run from the field.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: gimartutin on February 02, 2018, 08:19:50 PM
Quote
You have totally misunderstood me. My remark was posted in all seriousness. I hate LP as much as anyone else here, and applaud your efforts to remove this health, safety, and science-inhibiting hazard from our society. Excessive light in the wrong place can kill you, if you read Bogg's post above mine. Perhaps next time you ought to avoid taking offense at someone on your side of the fence. Yes, I was intentionally singled out, since I had a post written against me for no reason at all, simply to get this thread off track.

My comments were actually intended for dpastern. Your post slipped in between while I was typing.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: acbanlota on February 03, 2018, 12:23:45 AM
Quote
&lt;snip&gt;

Quote

Just because society doesn't care about something now does not mean they never will. There are lots of things that are considered important today that were not on anyone's radar 20 years ago. If you think trying to convince people to care about light pollution is a waste of time, I guess that's your prerogative. But maybe you should at least think about what you are trying to accomplish by discouraging the rest of us from doing something about it.

I don't mean to single you out - I see lots of negative comments from different people on this board about how efforts to limit light pollution are a waste of time. You are not even close to being one of the worst ones. But I think maybe taking time to tell those of us who are making the effort we are wasting our time is an even bigger waste of time.

Not sure if this was directed at me or not. Your ordinary average person doesn't care about the night sky. Ask anyone who's done outreach - kids run rampant, damage your gear, parents don't care about their kids bad behaviour, etc. You have to start young, but parental influence is a huge issue. If the parents aren't pro Astronomy, that child's interest will never grow. Since this sort of situation is endemic in modern society, I hold little hope for LP being solved. I see the number of kids going into the sciences dwindling. Some interesting reading:

http://www.smh.com.a...006-10qvq2.html (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/20year-decline-in-year-12-science-and-maths-participation-study-finds-20141006-10qvq2.html)

http://www.smh.com.a...805-gisnr5.html (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/four-myths-about-why-your-kids-arent-studying-science-for-the-hsc-20150805-gisnr5.html)

By all means push for LP solutions. I personally don't have the mental or physical energy to do so anymore. I've had enough fights in my life that I couldn't win, to recognise that LP is another fight that's impossible to win.

Dave
Fair enough. I get exhausted myself sometimes. I just get tired of hearing that I'm wasting my time.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: cesconali on February 03, 2018, 07:18:10 AM
Quote
Quote

Quote

&lt;snip&gt;

<p class="citation">earlyriser, on 11 Dec 2017 - 8:43 PM, said:<a href="https://www.cloudynights.com/index.php?app=forums&amp;module=forums&amp;section=findpost&amp;pid=8266297" rel="citation">(https://www.cloudynights.com//public/style_images/master/snapback.png)[/url]<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote built" data-author="earlyriser" data-cid="8266297" data-time="1513017821">

Just because society doesn't care about something now does not mean they never will. There are lots of things that are considered important today that were not on anyone's radar 20 years ago. If you think trying to convince people to care about light pollution is a waste of time, I guess that's your prerogative. But maybe you should at least think about what you are trying to accomplish by discouraging the rest of us from doing something about it.

I don't mean to single you out - I see lots of negative comments from different people on this board about how efforts to limit light pollution are a waste of time. You are not even close to being one of the worst ones. But I think maybe taking time to tell those of us who are making the effort we are wasting our time is an even bigger waste of time.

Not sure if this was directed at me or not. Your ordinary average person doesn't care about the night sky. Ask anyone who's done outreach - kids run rampant, damage your gear, parents don't care about their kids bad behaviour, etc. You have to start young, but parental influence is a huge issue. If the parents aren't pro Astronomy, that child's interest will never grow. Since this sort of situation is endemic in modern society, I hold little hope for LP being solved. I see the number of kids going into the sciences dwindling. Some interesting reading:

http://www.smh.com.a...006-10qvq2.html (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/20year-decline-in-year-12-science-and-maths-participation-study-finds-20141006-10qvq2.html)

http://www.smh.com.a...805-gisnr5.html (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/four-myths-about-why-your-kids-arent-studying-science-for-the-hsc-20150805-gisnr5.html)

By all means push for LP solutions. I personally don't have the mental or physical energy to do so anymore. I've had enough fights in my life that I couldn't win, to recognise that LP is another fight that's impossible to win.

Dave
Fair enough. I get exhausted myself sometimes. I just get tired of hearing that I'm wasting my time.
let's look at this logically.

a) less kids are getting into sciences

b) less parents care about sciences

c) a) and b) combined will have a snow ball effect in the long run, and this issue will get worse with each generation.

d) amateur astronomers are only a tiny % of our population

e) amateur astronomers are mostly older persons (for the reasons outlined in a) through to c)

f) amateur astronomers are getting older

g) older amateur astronomers who pass away aren't getting replaced by younger astronomers 1 for 1...

h) g) means our numbers are declining at a greater rate than replenishment

the combination of all of the above points means we are continuing to dwindle as a hobby base in terms of numbers, and it's numbers that are important. Tell me, if 100 people protest and 5000000 people protest, who will the government listen to more? It won't matter how vocal you are, or how well made your arguments are.

The current US administration has made it clear that it has zero respect for nature and our planet, both of which are more important to the average person than looking at the night skies. You will get little sympathy, empathy, or support from non Astronomers. So, how do we get more support? It is clear that we must engage the wider community if we are to win the LP battle. But how?

Do not forget that human populations are growing, and that urban sprawl in every major country is also expanding at an ever growing rate of knots. LP is increasing as the urban sprawl increases, see this recent CNN article:

http://edition.cnn.c...tudy/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/23/health/light-pollution-increase-study/index.html)

The best tactic I can see is for each amateur to write letters to their local and federal representatives on a weekly basis and keep this up 20 or 30 years. Non stop. Be absolutely annoying as hell. But, that gets very tiring and demoralising after a while...

I'm not just being very negative about all of this, I've looked at the situation and analysed it very closely.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Jesse Kaine on February 08, 2018, 06:24:43 PM
Quote
The current US administration has made it clear that it has zero respect for nature and our planet, both of which are more important to the average person than looking at the night skies. You will get little sympathy, empathy, or support from non Astronomers. So, how do we get more support? It is clear that we must engage the wider community if we are to win the LP battle. But how?
Pretty simple actually. While most people have no respect for nature or science, just about everyone respects and/or worships money. And more efficient, less wasteful lighting saves money.
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Eric Hayes on February 08, 2018, 10:21:26 PM
With the money, they could hire armed escorts (campus police) and actually make people safer...
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: bunkreplterpka on February 09, 2018, 02:23:29 AM
Quote
Quote
The current US administration has made it clear that it has zero respect for nature and our planet, both of which are more important to the average person than looking at the night skies. You will get little sympathy, empathy, or support from non Astronomers. So, how do we get more support? It is clear that we must engage the wider community if we are to win the LP battle. But how?
Pretty simple actually. While most people have no respect for nature or science, just about everyone respects and/or worships money. And more efficient, less wasteful lighting saves money.
and that means people just add more lighting (since it's so cheap...)
Title: Re: Ohio University Adding More Light "Because it makes people feel safer".
Post by: Michael Greene on February 09, 2018, 05:58:20 AM
I often work with younger people that have brand new shiny science degrees and I'm amazed that many if not most know next to zip about the night sky. Just the way it is I guess but not surprised to hear about a complete lack of concern about LP from an educational institution. Double thumbs up to you young people here that are into the hobby and are concerned about LP. You're the future and have a big task ahead to promote awareness. Keep swinging the hammer - Illegitimi non carborundum.