Author Topic: Sometimes It's Hopeless  (Read 300 times)

Michael Thompson

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2018, 12:50:50 AM »
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Judging from the replies I can say that my communication skills are very obviously lacking in clarity.
Your communications skills are in excellent order, trust me. If you presented your case to your employers with the aplomb with which you post here on CN, I'm positive that your message came across. That message, however, was likely so utterly foreign to them that you might as well have been proposing the introduction of a family of Amazonian electric eels into the company pond for environmental purposes; the response would have been identical in either case. People often "shut down" when faced with a situation or request that they have never considered previously, and the default reaction is to dismiss it out-of-hand, unless it is being proposed by someone considered by them to be a superior.As for the responses, keep in mind that this particular forum is devoted to discussing a problem to which there really no practical, over-arching solution; only the horrors of massive population reduction via war and/or pestilence, or global energy systems degradation would create the conditions to allow this (with all due respect to De Lorme, I don't consider electronic methods of viewing to be a solution of any sort, as one might just as well look at photos in a book or online); thus, it's entirely natural that coping mechanisms exist which do everything but acknowledge this. In my opinion, this venue exists more to blow off steam than to accomplish much of anything concrete, save for minor "victories" here and there while the war is being lost. Light pollution increases annually, and short of catastrophe will continue to do so in spite of our best efforts - one can bet on it.You did well by your efforts, Herrointment, and it would have been worthwhile had it diminished the LP in your vicinity. With thirty years in, I hope that you can soon retire to a darker area to enjoy astronomy; those are my plans for the near future, as I learned long ago that attempting to reduce light pollution near population centers, save in one's immediate environs, is truly an exercise in futility.

laycacdownsell

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2018, 09:29:23 PM »
If nothing had been said, then there is zero chance of enacting change. At least you made a presentation and tried. It is a losing battle, but sometimes small victories are rewarding. In this case, there was no victory, but does not make it any less worthwhile to try to fight it.

I agree with the bait and switch approach. Argue against LP with any reason other than it is LP. Present the ten other things it adversely affects with obnoxious over-lighting and the waste of money and energy. Particularly with energy waste as that is going to be larger issue over financial waste politically, even though the financial waste hits the number crunchers faster.

As far as De Lorme's post - De Lorme, I'm right there with you on image intensifiers. Just as far from the experience of looking at photos online as using conventional eyepieces or larger aperture in same white zones. In fact, for me, there is no experience like it. It is unique.

Joe Mallard

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2018, 12:27:07 AM »
Sometimes existing business relationships or practices are difficult to change, even when presented with cost effective/ energy conserving alternatives. "The devil you know..."

imlukaro

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2018, 06:00:52 AM »
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You should have approach it as operating cost reduction\ money saved\complying with some energy saving\nuisance regulation. <strong class="bbc">THEN at least it would have been considered and/or discussed.[/b]


We don't know that it would have been considered/discussed.  Some businesses/individuals will always believe that the brighter the light, the safer the area, no matter how they are approached.

I applaud the OP, he made the effort, and did what he could to change their minds.

toughhalrechal

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2018, 06:48:01 AM »
I applaud the OP as well. Nothing said-nothing gained.At least an effort was made. How many astropeople actually say something to anyone other than a neighbor?

ndesevtenzio

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2018, 10:16:16 AM »
In my dealings with issues surrounding poor lights, I have found that making one concerted effort has never, ever been sufficient.Lighting issues take time for people to consider. Back when the interstate highway system was first put in, trash littered the roadways. It took a concerted effort to get people to realize that throwing their trash out the window is unacceptable. That hasn't stopped a few people from doing it, but the interstates are vastly cleaner than they were 40-50 years ago.Same with lighting. We're on the very leading edge of this issue. So speaking up once isn't going to have much impact. And truth be told, it may have NO impact at your company. It's possible no one cares. I work at small company where I can talk to my boss about anything, pretty much. I've mentioned the lights on our building that aim out (not even down AT the parking lot!) and literally light up an empty 160 acre field (and of course the light keeps going beyond it).Her response? "They so cheap to operate, it really doesn't matter."Stupid? Yes. Shortsighted? Yes. Am I going to get it changed? Probably not. But that hasn't stopped me from other efforts, where I HAVE had success (neighbor to my west, and two streetlights nearby to me). This is a LONG haul, and we all just need to be patient, polite, and most of all, persistent. Keep bringing it up. Or, like with my streetlight issue, keep talking to OTHER people until you hit on the RIGHT person who can make a change. Those took me two years once I started, but as soon as I talked to the RIGHT person? They were changed in less than a week.Keep at it. Don't get discouraged.

engoecircming

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2018, 03:23:45 PM »
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As a 30 year employee I am able to speak to those in charge and those who can make a difference if they choose to.I told the manager about the issue and how by using proper planning they can have both effective and safer lighting for minimal cost......The lighting system has not been and will not be modified.Honestly, people just don't care about this issue even when presented with good information. Those I spoke with are people I trust to do the right thing. I tried.
The overriding factor may likely have been a turf issue within the organization: the people in charge of the lighting part of the project perceived you as an outsider butting in, an interloper telling them how to do their job.  Even though you are a 30-year employee of this company, you are nevertheless effectively an outsider on anything to do with the lighting phase of the expansion project - else you would have been in the planning loop for the lighting to begin with and not needed to intercede with supposed friendlies in management to present your ideas.  What likely happened is that your management contacts were modestly impressed enough to mention at least a brief outline of your arguments to the lighting folks, but were quickly met with enough dismissive resistance from them that your management buddies decided this wasn't worth mounting a fight about it with the lighting people.  Now the fact that the lighting folks may care nothing about the issue of light pollution may have reinforced their turf-protecting instincts, but that's really only a secondary issue to resisting being told what to do by a meddlesome outsider.  And your immediate management contacts may have seen more risk of sewing team disharmony if they pushed hard enough to force the lighting changes you advocated than the incremental financial efficiencies seemed potentially worth - in this light, their seeming lack of any effective action from your presentation is not a rejection of it so much as it is regarding it as outweighted by other organizational factors.  Didn't seem worth the risk of rocking the boat when the lighting people turned a cold shoulder to it.In retrospect, the only way this presentation could have effectively worked is if your management friendlies were intrigued enough by your idea to adopt and push it as their own AND felt themselves on firm enough turf organizationally to push the lighting folks to come around on it.  But though they may have shown some interest at the time of your presentation, you never quite got them to the point of buying into ownership of the efficiency argument sufficiently to be willing to actually spend some of their management capital getting the idea implemented past bureaucratic resistance.OF COURSE, you were there, I wasn't, and so the above is merely educated speculation on my part.  Query though how plausibly on-the-mark or not this analysis sounds to you-who-were-there.

tessacubadc

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2018, 04:53:31 PM »
They are good people, the company is smallish and they are very very very busy juggling more projects than they should be. This is how business works now....load them up till you find the breaking point and push for more. It works but the human toll is considerable.

Anyway........

Dave, I believe your are correct (and this does not surprise me).

Your posts here over the last few years gave me the idea of going in for a word. I tried to use the information in those posts to build a presentation, however quick, that would be informative about the correct application of outdoor lighting in an industrial setting. I did OK, but I offered no specifics only generalizations and where to find information. I don't give presentations very often.....once every 30 years or so!

I guess I need to hand that information to them.

I've got next week off. Tomorrow I'll ask about the lighting plans and if they are finalized.

If they are not I'll ask about having another chat and offer specifics.

I'll try again. That's very good advice.

Thanks!

NOTE........ Links that apply would be very much appreciated!

Mario Carpenter

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2018, 02:26:44 PM »
I also admire any and all who take the time and hutzpah to approach management on an issue that affects their print on the environment. If government, corporations and we can't approach an issue, how will we solve it. So I guess we all keep quiet and get Image Intensifiers? (I am new to the hobby,2 days since new scope) I would hope we do both, discuss, and adapt.

laycacdownsell

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2018, 02:49:49 PM »
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I also admire any and all who take the time and hutzpah to approach management on an issue that affects their print on the environment. If government, corporations and we can't approach an issue, how will we solve it. So I guess we all keep quiet and get Image Intensifiers? (I am new to the hobby,2 days since new scope) I would hope we do both, discuss, and adapt.

Did someone suggest keeping quiet and getting image intensifiers?

Joseph Garrison

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2018, 08:18:43 PM »
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NOTE........ Links that apply would be very much appreciated!

This may help:

http://www.darksky.o...ments/is026.pdf

Yes, it's still IDA, but it has factual data information. From a business perspective, this is probably exactly what they do need (which I realize runs counter to what I argued in my other post about how we're doing it all wrong.)

This one is good too, though it's less about the figures and heavier on facts, but it discusses glare, which IS an issue for working outside:

http://www.facilitie...xterior-Ligh...

Don't just hand them the sheets and walk away. Highlight the cost savings and facts sections - judiciously, so they see the 'good' stuff quickly and easily. Then get them a copy of something like this, or show them this page - it's a great "bad vs. good" comparison:

http://illinoislight...g/fixture4.html

Hope those help.

Tim Jauregui

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2018, 11:47:47 PM »
Thanks.

brodsandbacksosp

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2018, 12:16:24 AM »
The bid for lighting has been accepted, no change possible.

Thank you all for the encouragement and comments!

Up next, the neighbors new unshielded "White-Hot Blazing Inferno" brand security light.

Photos at 11!

brodsandbacksosp

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2018, 06:54:29 AM »
I have good neighbors. Nice people. They've taken the ten steps it takes to come over and look through the various scopes on numerous occasions. They know the time and effort I've put into the hobby. We have even talked about how their (now former) yard light really made things difficult.A few weeks ago they changed the light. To one easily twice as bright. I doubt this photo captures the glare, but walking up to my back door you need to shield your eyes. Tress are illuminated 50-75 yards away from their property.This light stuff is starting to kill my interest in the hobby. Don't know how you folk who have it far worse than I do keep up the faith.

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suppsilzuning

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Re: Sometimes It's Hopeless
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2018, 01:51:19 PM »
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I have good neighbors. Nice people. They've taken the ten steps it takes to come over and look through the various scopes on numerous occasions. They know the time and effort I've put into the hobby. We have even talked about how their (now former) yard light really made things difficult.

A few weeks ago they changed the light. To one easily twice as bright. I doubt this photo captures the glare, but walking up to my back door you need to shield your eyes. Tress are illuminated 50-75 yards away from their property.

This light stuff is starting to kill my interest in the hobby. Don't know how you folk who have it far worse than I do keep up the faith.
Where are the laws that protect homeowners from *BLEEP* like that?!?