Author Topic: DSP Hypertune for CGX?  (Read 502 times)

rennlispuring

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DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« on: December 27, 2017, 01:52:58 PM »
I see Deep Space Products is offering a Hypertune service on the CGXs, at $465. Has anyone had this done, and did it resolve your CGX performance concerns? They claim to reset worm meshing and backlash as part of the tune. The shipping costs would kill me, it would be nice to get a kit for DIY. If they would bring out a belt drive upgrade kit, which included a motor pulley replacement i would buy that.



Jeff Smith

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2017, 05:03:49 PM »
I think it is more about trying to make chicken salad. That has to take some time and expertise.

I agree with you that shipping is the main concern but I wonder if you can ship just the mount head in a smaller box?

Kyle Montes

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2017, 03:17:10 AM »
Quote
I think it is more about trying to make chicken salad. That has to take some time and expertise.

I agree with you that shipping is the main concern but I wonder if you can ship just the mount head in a smaller box?

From the other side of the world, not likely.

I am capable of mount tear down, and tune, have done it before. But would like some feedback on DSPs tune before i bug them for the parts.

smarhurtfranoth

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2018, 03:31:18 AM »
I had a reply from Edward at DSP, they are not intending to offer CGX Hypertune kits or services (despite it still being listed on their website product page), due to internal complexity of the mount and design issues that need to be addressed by the manufacturer.

Darius Swick

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2018, 06:12:30 AM »
Mine was the first one Ed did and I would highly recommend it. Shipping is the unfortunate bad side effect for you.

Nathan Sorgaard

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2018, 07:10:41 AM »
Quote
Mine was the first one Ed did and I would highly recommend it. Shipping is the unfortunate bad side effect for you.

I am pretty sure he said they were not going to do anymore CGXs, for the reasons outlined above. I think your scared them. Didn't it wind up going back to Celestron from DSP?

synchanrimyp

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 01:02:08 AM »
That would be mine.
But it is returned from Celestron, and all is well with the world.

And yes, my understanding is he is not doing any CGX or CGX-L Hypertuning...

Ed is a good friend of mine, and i understand the issues he faced with this mount.
But again, my CGX-L is mounted on my pier here in Tempe, AZ, and working pretty good.

Edward Johnston

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 11:40:30 PM »
I know i have posted in other CGX threads here recently that i was still having some problems and was considering sending the mount back to Celestron (again). But then continued working with the mount, and i think i am getting this thing "dialed in" pretty good. For example, tonight i imaged a couple of SH2 object, and did a full hour of 5-min exposures (guided) for each target.

Here is what my guiding looked like (from TheSkyX Pro) (This "plot" represents about 5-min of guiding...)
Here is a finished image of one of them:
And here is an exploded view (enlargement) of the target area, showing the pixel pattern for the stars. Again, this is a stacked image consisting of 12 5-min exposures. And i did not throw any of them out !! Did not have to.

Bottom line.... The CGX-L is working out well !!!






grateganir

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 11:05:36 AM »
That is great David, but your mount has been to DSP and Celestron since you bought it. Are you saying it is great as a result of sending it to those two organisations, or it's great as a result of your efforts to dial it in?

litgeschsappa

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2018, 01:25:06 AM »
Quote
That would be mine.
But it is returned from Celestron, and all is well with the world.

And yes, my understanding is he is not doing any CGX or CGX-L Hypertuning...

Ed is a good friend of mine, and i understand the issues he faced with this mount.
But again, my CGX-L is mounted on my pier here in Tempe, AZ, and working pretty good.

Can you please tell us what specific issues scared him away from hypertuning these mounts?

micnoasolos

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 04:19:28 AM »
Glend...

That is a hard one to answer. The Hypertuning did not go well... that would be obvious, as the mount was returned to Celestron for "fixing" or "adjustment" or whatever. Celestron did a good job, and the mount was returned, and worked well for about a weak or so. Then it got hot... real hot. Meaning ambient night time temps in upper 90's and 100's. Things went south, and the mount started the jumping (binding) again. This is the core reason i am thinking temperature is playing a roll.

I decided to wait things out until it cooled off, but that won't be until Oct. So i started trying to figure things out. There are some good threads here on CN complete with images and videos that cover these issues. Bottom line on the "two adjustment screws" is that there are really "six"... and they all are a factor. AND... there is the issue of the tension of the belt that drives the pulleys. I am working on that one now.....

I know you (Glend) are focused on the belt alignment. That is NOT an issue with my mount.

So... there you have it.... Lots of fingers in the mix !!

Gundark (Glen)......

I would defer to Ed (DSP) to answer that one. He is a "mount mechanic" (and a darn good one in my opinion)... and he is also a Celestron dealer. Actually, i purchased this mount through him. Ed made a business decision, and i respect that.

As i have stated above, he has been a good friend for many years, and he still is. I do know he was "concerned" about the internal cable routing (new to this mount), as well as the issues surround the spring worm operation. Other than that, again, i would defer to Ed. His business, and his decision.

tiodiacontti

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 05:27:24 AM »
Here is a link to what i believe is the "best" of the CGX threads on these issues:

https://www.cloudyni...ra#entry8031294

The two main posters are Jim Selph (starter) and Dave Compton (from Oklahoma).
Dave Compton has a series of U-Tube videos on the CGX which are "priceless"... meaning they show great detail, and answer many questions.

Glend..... (and others)
As you are aware, and so am I, the CGX is going to be a "maintenance" mount. Even Celestron "hints" at this by including their instruction on adjusting the worm gear mesh (the two screws version).

I have no problem with that, as long as i know what the adjustments are. What i really wish is for Celestron to produce a U-Tube like video on the complete configuration and adjustments (including all 6 screws and belt tension settings). These mounts are going to be lasting us for many years, hopefully well beyond the 2 year warranty. It would be good if the purchasers of these mounts could feel confident in being able to maintain them. If no video ( this is 2017 - right ?? ), then atleast drawing and specification for settings, and definitely more than the two screws....

Oh... and most important.... they describe the allen screws as 2mm and 2.5mm. NO !! Its 2mm and 3mm. And the two holding the assembly together are 4mm....

Anthony Graham

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Re: DSP Hypertune for CGX?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2018, 07:12:12 AM »
Deciding on whether to HyperTune a new type of mount involves decisions regarding the difficulty of the work, the benefit to the mount, benefit vs. cost, cost vs. time/effort needed, problems related to the design and whether they can be reasonably mitigated, the likelihood that the work might make an important difference, the expectations of owners, owner's experience with the mountsto date,etc. There are many things that I have to consider. There are some good design changes in these mounts that reduce some of the work I would normally do. There are some bad design changes that make my job significantly harder. The initial freeness of the axes to turn easy enough to allow reasonably good balance is a good thing. The spring loading system is a bad thing. The internal cabling is simply a nightmare. As it turns out, there are more bad things than good things as it pertains to HyperTuning these mounts at this time. Because of the complexity of the internal cabling (every cable has to be marked, every plug has to be marked, every cable positioner has to be marked, all the cable routing has to be noted, etc.) I am highly unlikely to ever put together a kit for these mounts or recommend anyone tear into them by themselves (beyond the easily accessible parts).

dfisherows' CGX HyperTune went well (considering all the complicating factors) and the mount appears to be working well and I had no reason to think that it wouldn't. dmdouglass' went just as well and nothing suggested there would be problems,but problems were apparent pretty quickly after the mount was put to use (his CGEM performed better). Neither mount had belt problems. With dmdouglass' mount I had actually made no adjustment of the worm tension in the mount when I worked on it because it appeared to be working reasonably well by my normal observations (no backlash and no motor bogging down). However, I did note that the spring-loading mechanism appeared essentially ineffectual (i.e., it basically didn't allow the worm to float on the wheel). The other things that I did to the mount should have had no negative effects on the mount. But when David starting using the mount, it was jumping at random intervals resulting in randomly bad subs. I went over to Dave's house to work on the mount with him (a definite advantage of having him local and one of the reasons I chose to HyperTune his CGX-L first)and we spent hours adjusting the worm tension back and forth (using Celestron's "instructions)without being able to get the problem solved essentially bouncing between too much stiction (i.e., too much tension on the worm against the wheel) and too much backlash (i.e., not enough tension on the worm against the wheel). This should not be a problem with a spring-loaded worm since that's what spring loading is supposed to take care of. We finally had to give up and send the mount in to Celestron who reported that they went through the mount and reset the worm tension leavingthe wormjammed up against the wheel with no visible movement of the spring mechanism. Go figure. While working better, Dave is still trying to get the mount "dialed in" which is frustrating to meat this point.

Unidentifiable problems or problems that cannot be readily fixed or improved are not something that I find worth dealing with for obvious reasons, particularly when I do not own one of these mounts myself that I can work on like a mad scientist.dfisherows let me have his CGX for this general purpose and I felt reasonably good when I finally finished working with itbut maybe I will pick one up sometime anyways. I also generally do not liketo workonbrand new mounts that the customer has not previously used (as in Dave's case) since it leaves a customer unable to compare before and after performance (or even identify if the mount works sufficiently out of the box for what they need). That is one reason why I have decided to no longer sell the HyperTuned mounts.

I don't want to work on mounts that I feel Icannot significantly or importantly improve because of the mount design (except for maintenance, I generally don't work on mounts that don't need improvement). HyperTuning takes a fair amount of time for both the customer and me and is not cheap. Because of that, both I and the customer expect to see some definable improvement to the performance and if I am not convinced that is the case, then I will generally choose to not ask people to spend that money.

I will be keeping my eye on these mounts as they go through their growing pains and will probably get back into them once I am convinced that things have steadied out. Until then, I am sitting on the sidelines.